MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 23, 2007 20:41:44 GMT -5
But if backstage malarky bothers you, how can you like HBK? Same shit.
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 23, 2007 21:13:55 GMT -5
I said cause Hogan pulled that crap, I don't care if the kliq did it. When HBK got on top he should have held on to the top spot, just like Hogan did. The difference is, it was a fact night in and ni9ght out HBK put on the best matches of the card, still does. Hogan never once stole the show, until he got in there with Michales. Someone, maybe even on the undercard out wrestled Hogan plenty of times, more times than I can count. How many times did Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect, Piper, Flair, Savage, shit Michaels and Jannetty too, how many times did they consistently put on better matches than the guy keeping them down holding on to the belt no selling guys making them look like shit? Fuck all of them, you don't keep down Ric Flair when he was still an assest, but either way, it's sad when the champ is getting shown up by mid carders.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 23, 2007 21:18:52 GMT -5
HBK was notorious for protecting his top spot.
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 23, 2007 21:25:44 GMT -5
As he should, he was one of the many better performers than Hogan kept down. Again the difference, Michales consistently delivered, Hogans matches were so fucking boring and textbook, it set a precedent that still scars wrestling to this day. Gid bless Michaels and him hanging on to his spot, it assured at least one good match every single night. Hogan as champ was fucking horrendous.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 23, 2007 21:30:56 GMT -5
And it helped WCW rise and consistently beat the WWF.
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 23, 2007 21:48:47 GMT -5
Yeah nWlo had nothing to do with it. Michaels as champ was the reason why they got their ass beat. One of the only saving graces in WWF was Michaels, but he was he reason they were beaten, not the hottest angle of all time.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 24, 2007 6:27:29 GMT -5
The WWF was a monopoly by far. They were number 1 easily.
WCW could never catch up.
The nWo was a great angle. No doubt. That angle got it going. Why? Because of the star power. The guys WCW spent the money on and signed were more popular and more interesting than Shawn Michaels as champ.
Shawn Michaels was no match for the nWo.
Steve Austin then stepped in and kicked the nWo's ass.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 24, 2007 7:35:02 GMT -5
James, the bulk of wrestling fans when Hogan was doing his thing all so well cared not for "performance and workrate." Hogan shook the rafters more than HBK ever did, unless he was swooping down on a zip cable for a match. Stop talking like some internet smark. Hogan did the job expected of him, better than anyone in the history of the sport.
And Austin not only came in and kicked the NWOs ass, he came in and kicked HBK's.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Oct 24, 2007 8:22:43 GMT -5
yeah I am a little confused by this all..To me HBK and Hulk are two in the same (aside from HBKs high flying moves)...... especially when it comes to backstage shennanigans....
James, Hulk nor HBK are my faves nor do I like one above the other but make no mistake...now whether any of us like it or not, no one was and still is bigger than Hogan (even at his advanced age and broken down state).........
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Post by thecaptain15 on Oct 24, 2007 8:24:26 GMT -5
James in regards to the Monday Night Wars it was Rock and Austin (not HBK) that turned the tide to bring WWE the duke.......
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Post by thecaptain15 on Oct 24, 2007 8:26:30 GMT -5
Hogan shook the rafters more than HBK ever did
I can attest to this as I have been in MSG for many events but when Hogan beat the Sheik the floor beneath me was literally shaking and I have never heard the Garden that loud and that includes Ranger playoff games....
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 24, 2007 11:55:41 GMT -5
Again, I'm not disputing drawing wise. No shit Hulk Hogan was the biggest name ever in wrestling, and will always be bigger than Shawn Michaels,but HBK can out perform Hogan any day of the week. Money wise is Hogan a bigger draw? fuck yeah. Wrestling wise, Hogan is no where near the level of Shawn Michaels. Yeah two different styles, but I never once felt anxious to see a Hogan match. There's a certain amount of excitment when HBK wrestles, and still has the feeling of I'm gonna see something cool watching a Michaels match. And the fact he still interjects that energy into shows even now, after all these years, something has to be said about that. Hogan got so fucking stale they had to turn him. I don't know there's a run of the mill Shawn Michaels match, but there sure is a Hogan run of the mill bore fest.
and as for the Monday Night Wars, DX helped usher in the Austin 3:16 era and the attitude era in general. And as we know, the co founders of DX were HHH and........
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 24, 2007 11:58:02 GMT -5
Hogan got so fucking stale they had to turn him
Yeah? And what happened when they turned him back? What happened in all his subsequent appearances? The fans WORSHIPPED Hogan!
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 24, 2007 12:04:17 GMT -5
Yeah the millions of morons who thinks a leg drop hurts anyone. The morons who buy into some guys spitting gibberish about vitamins and prayers. The assholes who pop when he cups his ear for 20 minutes. I'd rather be a smark than a Hogan mark.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 24, 2007 12:10:50 GMT -5
When was DX founded? They were a part of the turnaround that countered the nWo, but I'm pretty sure they were not around when WCW took over the top spot. I think that was during HBK's run.
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 24, 2007 12:21:57 GMT -5
October 97. All my point is, DX was the biggest thing of that time era not named Austin or nWo. And I only brought it up cause DX paved the way to Austin 3:16, which is what saved Vince's ass. Without DX, no Austin, no beating WCW. And that's due to HBK knowing you needed a change to combat nWo. And let me ask you this Balls, if someone else was champ and not HBK, you think WWF does better than WCW? No fucking way. Michaels was the saving grace of every WWF show.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 24, 2007 12:35:52 GMT -5
DX WAS the biggest thing not related to Austin or the Rock or nWo. I'll give you that, but that came later, at a point where the WWF was reclaiming the top spot.
Nitro started that 80 plus week run at the top in mid 1996. Shawn won the belt for the first time a few weeks earlier.
I can't answer the question of whether the WWF would have done better if someone else ws the champ, because that didn't happen. No way to know.
But clearly, Michaels as champ just didn't cut it.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 24, 2007 12:46:34 GMT -5
Eh, Austin was doing his thing well before DX. Trust me, I am watching it month to month on my tapes. I am into July 97 and Austin is all over the place, wreaking all kinds of havoc, ready to lead his team into that 5 on 5 against the Harts at the Calgary Stampede.
Austin was already the hottest thing in the promotion, along with a heel Brett leading his faction. Austin would have happened without DX, cause he DID!
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 24, 2007 13:05:11 GMT -5
No question. Austin's rise had nothing to do with DX. If anything, you might argue that Austin paved the way for DX because his style, which started KOTR 1996, predated DX by over a year, according to James' dates.
DX was a HUGE part of the resurgence of the WWF, but they took off and carried the momentum.
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 24, 2007 13:19:32 GMT -5
But the 80 week run doesn't fall on Michaels. Guys jumped ship, he had to make due with what was put in the ring with him. To me WWF had whatever success they had during that time due to Michaels. He won the belt in March of 96, by the end of May, Nash and Hall were gone and debuting on Nitro soon after. Hall showed up first time 3 weeks after his contract ended, Nash two weeks later. That started the 80 week run. They were in WWF and within a month debuting in WCW, you think that had nothing to do with the run, it was cause Michaels was champ? He was busting his ass putting on great match after great match, tearing the house down. What else can he do? He only has so much control over ratings being a performer. All he can do is put on good matches.
There are two types of champs Balls. The guys who are best at drawing money and the guys who are the best in ring performers. Austin and Hogan fall into that category, not good wrestlers but the best and making money. Guys like Flair and Michaels, best performers of their time. Michaels as champ did what was asked from him and you can't ask for more.
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 24, 2007 13:22:34 GMT -5
Another thing, the very start of burying WCW started when Vince said Bret screwed Bret, DX was redhot and Austn was coming up strong, all centered around Shawn. He deserves more credit for pushing the envelope.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 24, 2007 13:32:21 GMT -5
Guys jumped ship on occasion long before Michaels. If Michaels was such a star, it wouldn't have mattered--at least not to the point where WWF became #2.
That could NEVER have happened in the Hogan era, no matter who jumped.
No DOUBT that the jumps were a major factor. But you know what made the nWo? It wasn't that Nash and Hall were there. It was HOGAN turning. Hogan's addition sealed the deal for that angle.
HBK finding his smile really wasn't much of a counter. Good matches alone just don't do it.
Flair was indeed a great performer. But he was also great at moving the angles along. Flair could carry a company. HBK clearly couldn't.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 24, 2007 13:38:35 GMT -5
all centered around Shawn. He deserves more credit for pushing the envelope.
By doing what, holding up a giant sausage with a barbecue tong and an apron and chef hat on in a skit in the ring, or wearing a visor with windshield wipers on it while getting yelled at by a spitting Sgt Slaughter?
That attitude stuff started with Austin, dude. He was flipping off McMahon, threatening Gorilla Monsoon, spitting out catchphrases, drinking beer and stunnering his partners a year before DX was even a consideration.
Get over it.
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 24, 2007 13:42:43 GMT -5
Um he did carry the company. They might have been blown out even more had Shawn not be Shawn. Shawn is the perfect example of working matches and making the other guys look good. Jobbing is just as important as the guy who wins. Shawn putting Austin over, screwing Bret, sticking guaze down his skin tight shorts all set up for the change WWF went with. Shawn is just as responsible for the direction WWF went with as much as Austin or nWo. I'm not discrediting Hogan for the nWo thing, I'd be stupid if I did, I just refuse to beleive that Michaels did nothing to help the business side of things and did nothing but hurt business. It was more complex than who was wearing the strap.
And don't compare Rock to Michaels, Rock did get big till after HBK left. On a funny note, Rock said he never wants to wrestle Shawn cause Shawn kept him down. By the time HBK left Rock had only been in the company for two years, and he wanted a main event push when he just broke in, prick.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Oct 24, 2007 14:08:07 GMT -5
James one place your wrong if The Rock came back he would be 10x bigger than HBK imo.....
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 24, 2007 14:21:05 GMT -5
If you can say HBK carried the company, he carried it to second place.
When he was the man, the company floundered. Then they struck gold with Austin.
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 24, 2007 14:27:09 GMT -5
I never said HBK would be bigger, yeah no shit it'd be huge, Rock has been gone for years now, of course the reaction would be off the charts. But Michaels is consistently getting huge pops. If Rock came back he would be big no doubt, but he's have to contend with Michaels. The only guy getting close to the reaction Cena was getting was HBK, so would Rock get a bigger reaction, yes. But it's be right up there with HBK. Good thing we'll never know cause Rock is a pussy. He goes and makes movies for a huge paycheck, what does he think would happen if he worked with Michaels? No one would care? Dos he think he's make no money? Fuck him that moron, HBK rules, Rock is a douche.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 24, 2007 14:30:25 GMT -5
Actually, I see Jeff Hardy getting some seriously good pops.
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Post by cactusjames on Oct 24, 2007 14:31:39 GMT -5
Yeah he does, but there is a difference between the volume of pops for Jeff and Shawn. Shawn's are way bigger.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 24, 2007 14:57:02 GMT -5
Eh, thats debatable.
We'll see how the vote goes. I think Hardy will win it.
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