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Post by rlm6370 on Dec 16, 2009 17:46:38 GMT -5
Bret has signed a short term deal with WWE and the deal returns until WM 26
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Dec 17, 2009 11:03:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I spent a lot of time last night texting with the usual suspects regarding this news. Most believe this will end up with Bret and Vince going at it, possibly at Mania, in some sort of street-fight where Vince can protect him (which he can do...he had a streetfight with his daughter at one point)
Some have the fantasy of Bret and HBK going at it, but I can not see this going that way at all. From what I have read of Bret, he is still a bit out of sorts and shuffling around. In fact, when someone I know within WWE talked to me about Bret possibly hosting a Raw months ago, he said it was unlikely cause Bret would have problems even navigating the steps backstage to the ramp.
There is also the question of how much this will mean in the eyes of the fans. The mention of Bret got minimal pop from the admittedly dead crowd the other night, on a suckass episode of Raw. But WWE skews young these days, at least in the arenas, so Bret may be met with a whimper.
That said, two things. Im excited about it, looking forward to him being around. But I will still be watching TNA on the 4th, even if Bret is returning or hosting the show that night. Ill watch that later on DVR.
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 17, 2009 11:23:57 GMT -5
Where IS Raw on January 4? I thought the Rock was hosting that night.
The location of Raw will impact Hart's reaction. That crowd was beyond terrible this week. It's unfair to judge anything by that. It was one of, if not THE worst crowd I have ever seen.
The writing was even worse than the crowd. Other than the DX/Jericho bit, Chris Masters' pec flex gimmick, Santino, and a few other things, Raw was a flop.
Even the Dennis Miller/Jericho confrontation sucked.
I would think the internet wrestling fans are going apeshit over how bad Raw was this week.
That's why I don't think the lack of reaction from the crowd means anything. I don't think even an appearance by the Rock or Hogan could have changed that.
It should be interesting if this goes long term or not. He's so physically screwed up that it's pretty dangerous for him to wrestle at all. Kind of sad, and surprising he would even risk it.
Would love to see him in some sort of non wrestling on air role, and in a perfect world, this could pave the way for Owen in the Hall of Fame, which still annoys me.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Dec 17, 2009 11:49:54 GMT -5
There is no word on all about when Rock is hosting. The 4th probably would not work regardless, as he is in the middle of filming something else or some such. Apparently WWE is NOT really sweating the TNA debut on the 4th (and they probably shouldnt) so they are not avidly seeking to counter with the Rock. This weeks Raw was one of the worst I have ever seen. I can not wait to watch TNA instead on a Monday night, and wish it would become the norm.
The internet fans are DESTROYING this weeks Raw, which hurts even worse after a pretty well-recieved PPV just the night before.
Hart is in for at least 5 or 6 months, but probably as a commish type, which will end up in a battle with Vince.
Balls, problem with Owen is not with Bret.....its with Owens surviving household (widow, children) not wanting the induction. Vince will NEVER do it without their blessing.
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 17, 2009 13:29:26 GMT -5
5-6 months lasts well beyond Wrestlemania. That's a nice go.
I can't get over how bad Raw was. You know what it reminds me of? The Seth MacFarlane Live special that happened a few weeks ago. Nice attempt, but ultimately, almost everything went flat. It was painful to watch both.
I doubt I would watch any TNA. I just have no interest in another organization. I would never give up Raw, and would never bother DVRing TNA. If I cared, I would DVR it now.
Maybe if a bitter guy like Bret can mend fences, they could somehow someday convince Owen's family to let him be honored.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Dec 17, 2009 13:31:31 GMT -5
I still swear that TNA is a better watch. And the talent is there....they have great young talent, and the old bones that old-school fans dont mind seeing (Sting, Angle, Steiner, Dudleys, Nash...)
And how could you conciously miss HULK HOGAN on January 4th??? Looks like RVD will be there too.....and a lot of people swear Flair is not far behind.
Bret and Owens family are also not close, Balls. Its not going to happen...
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Post by thecaptain15 on Dec 17, 2009 13:40:00 GMT -5
These days TNA is vastly superior and more enjoyable to WWE (and that was true even before all this Hogan stuff recently)..I was figuring Flair would be "one of the mystery people he is bring"
WWE pecking order I enjoy the shows in this order
1. Smackdown 2. ECW 3. RAW
Also The Rock has a new movie coming out in mid January I believe (I saw the trailor called like Tooth Fairy or something like that when I took my son to the movies..I am sure we will take it in as well) so I would look for him to host right around the release...
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Post by rlm6370 on Dec 17, 2009 13:49:42 GMT -5
These days TNA is vastly superior and more enjoyable to WWE (and that was true even before all this Hogan stuff recently)..I was figuring Flair would be "one of the mystery people he is bring" WWE pecking order I enjoy the shows in this order 1. Smackdown 2. ECW 3. RAW Also The Rock has a new movie coming out in mid January I believe (I saw the trailor called like Tooth Fairy or something like that when I took my son to the movies..I am sure we will take it in as well) so I would look for him to host right around the release... Rock has said that he won't host RAW for months and that he wants to do something special, not just a one shot hosting deal. He doesn't need RAW to push the 'Tooth Fairy" since it's a Disney film and they have a great publicity machine
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Dec 17, 2009 14:14:43 GMT -5
Yeah, Rock is not really on the immediate agenda, guys.
Cap, Im in with you 100% on that pecking order. Only problem is that ECW is changing a bit for now, as the ratings dropped enough to where they are putting big names on weekly under the guise of a "Homecoming Tourney" or some such.
But for me as well its TNA Impact, Smackdown, ECW, Raw (although Raw is the only one I watch live, as its become a Monday tradition for me - however, if TNA goes Mondays live as they will on 1/4, I switch to them on Mondays)
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Post by thecaptain15 on Dec 17, 2009 16:06:12 GMT -5
These days I TIVO all of them and ocassionally watch them live......
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Post by $heriff Tom on Dec 23, 2009 9:49:00 GMT -5
Ok, in the last few days I have been getting pretty stoked about a return by Bret Hart. Wont get me to watch the January 4th Raw live, but still. I finally am using this as a prod to crunch down and read Harts book, which I had been reading in small spurts, as good as I found it.
What a great book. Im well over halfway through it. I also am planning on pulling out my Bret Hart DVD and cracking through some matches to preface his return.
In the last few months I watched a lot of his later heel work in the WWF, leading his pack of wolves. Great stuff, my favorite incarnation of the his. But I have to laugh, back when he was stuck in his tag team with Jim the Anvil, before they got anywhere, I wrote a silly letter to a wrestling mag griping that Hart was not being pushed, and should get a run as a single. Never sent it, found it in a box. How prophetic! Even then I saw him as immense talent.
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 23, 2009 10:13:08 GMT -5
You are lucky you have that. I would kill for a copy of the email I wrote to Mr. Bob Backlund, which was several pages long, written completely in Mr. Backlund's character, that he must have found so funny that he put excerpts of that email on his website.
It was one of my better works, and I even proved how he defeated Bret Hart in the "I Quit" match at Wrestlemania in the longest match in WWE history (18 months).
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Post by sean on Dec 23, 2009 13:03:10 GMT -5
I remember when they were a tag team. I was watching the Saturday show one time at my grandparents, and they were being interviewed. My grandfather, 80-something at the time, barks out, seriously and angry...."what the hell is that guy's (The Anvil) wife (Bret) doing there?!?!" . The Hart Foundation vs. the British Bulldogs feud is what fully hooked me into pro wrestling. I leafed thru Bret's book in a Borders one day, looks like a great read
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Dec 24, 2009 16:54:17 GMT -5
I cant recommend the Hart book enough. Its out in paperback now, so its not so heavy to lug around either. Its pretty much confirmed now that Hart IS hosting the January 4th Raw. What a night of grappling action and intrigue that is going to be.
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Post by cactusjames on Jan 3, 2010 22:09:53 GMT -5
I hope he gets super kicked. Maybe it will give him another stroke. If that doesn't happen I'm watching TNA, who gives a shit about the mushed mouthed fucking idiot? Never has there been a more overrated, boring fucking wrestler. Same formula to every match. He starts with some headlocks, body slams and a back suplex. Then he would sell for the rest of the match till he made the comeback with the back breaker, russian leg sweep, forearm off the second rope, sharpshooter, shower. His only good matches were with Owen and you know who. The promos go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. What's he doing Monday? Oh yeah hosting the fucking show, which means all he'll do is talk. YAAAWWWWWWNN!!!! The love for Bret Hart on this board sickens me. Wrestling fans love the overrated bore, Bret, Cena, etc. Let me know when Tyson is hosting.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 4, 2010 6:57:02 GMT -5
James--that was a well thought out, funny rant on the Hitman.
Truth be told, I was never a big fan of the guy, in part for some of the reasons you mentioned. Owen was awesome, but I was not a fan of Bret. His heel turn was pretty funny, and his reconciliation with Owen was gold, but his matches sucked.
I never really saw the appeal of the guy.
Feel free to rant on him as often as you like. It's pretty timely now that he's coming back.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 4, 2010 10:17:13 GMT -5
Im surprised at the loathing of Bret from some parties here, but its misguided. Hart was solid. James I can discount cause he is simply speaking as an HBK lover.
Anyone who can watch the matches on the Bret Hart DVD and say he sucks is either delusional or just causing trouble.
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Post by cactusjames on Jan 4, 2010 10:20:13 GMT -5
Honestly my hatred for him has nothing to do with HBK or DX. But the screwjob really told me he thought he was bigger than the business. I would do the same thing Vince did 100 times out of 100. Like Hunter said, fuck him. If he won't do business you do it for him. Would Canadian fans love him any less if he lost clean? No. But his fucking ego is and was bigger than Shawn's by far. You can cite the times Bret said HBK faked an injury to drop the title but it can't be proven. And bottom line, you were better just for being in the ring with HBK. Bret was only good when he had someone to work with. The matches in WCW with Benoit, the matches with Owen and HBK were his best though. So a guy who had a 20 year career only has about 8 to 10 matches that were exciting edge of your seat matches. How is this guy so great? Same reason Hogan was, popularity. you don't have to be a good worker to get over and it sucks.
now you want me to go strong with the HBK stuff? This prick Hart gets so much love cause he had a fucking stroke cause he can't ride a motorcycle and him coming back to host a Raw is a big fucking deal. Meanwhile, a certain someone else broke his fucking back performing, told he was done. Came back 4 years later and arguably, is having a better run than when he was younger in terms of just sheer match quality. By the time HBK is done for real, he'll need 2 DCD sets of 3 discs to cover all his classic matches. Bret gets one 2 disc I believe. And 50% of those matches suck, don't matter if it's 2 or 3 discs. But I've been on line at wrestling shows while people just suck Bret's cock. You fuckers are lucky Shawn isn't the angry young man still, Bret would never host in that case. And even if he did, HBK would upstage him just to get Shawn's due respect. But he's a grown up now and wants what's best for the business not just HBK.
But if Bret pulls some shit and won't work with DX, he's a bigger douche knot than I can describe. A) they're one of the most over acts at this moment, they're the unified Tag champs, and have history with the shitman. They're better be at least a interaction backstage.
Thank God the Cowboys won or I'd be in a worse mood today.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 4, 2010 10:26:12 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree. I think James nailed it. I'm no HBK fan, but Bret's matches did seem to follow a blueprint. I bet you could throw in a random Bret Hart match or two, and James could call move by move in advance. He wouldn't be the only one to do that.
I know one of the wrestling books touched on this issue as well, though I don't remember if it was Foley or Flair.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 4, 2010 10:34:19 GMT -5
Actually, Balls, both Foley and Brets books DID touch on that sort of thing....in regards to FLAIR having paint-by-numbers matches.
While Hart had some signature spots, he had a diverse repetoire of matches. You're off base.
Oh, and James, do you not forget at the time of the "screwjob" HBK was in the middle of a "I wont job to ANYONE" phase? This has been completely documented and confirmed in all the newsletters.....you have a VIP membership to the newsletters, or do you want me to send you the full story as to Harts thinking?
Hart was saying he would not drop to HBK at home cause of HBKS admission he would not give one back. Hart was prepared to job the title in a number of different venues before and after the date of the screwjob, including here at MSG.
For the record, Hart had lost many times "at home." Fact is, he was going to WCW, deal was done, and he was not looking to be embarrassed on the way out the door.
Balls, you dont know the story either, so you need to be careful as thinking you are speaking the gospel here.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 4, 2010 10:44:51 GMT -5
Whether Flair had paint by the numbers matches doesn't change that Bret did as well.
And of course, HBK's "I don't job" phase was a low point in WWE history. But the whole screwjob incident happened in part because Vince was worried that Bret would do the same thing to the WWE belt that Medusa did to the women's belt.
WCW played dirty.
Let's face it, Bret's attitude has been one of an overgrown baby. His refusal and unwillingness to job in Canada was beyond stupid and unprofessional. His crybaby reaction and bitterness was even worse.
As for not being embarrassed on the way out the door, tough. When a wrestler leaves a company, there is a tradition where he jobs a lot before going. Sometimes final matches are loser leaves town matches, or just embarrassing losses to people they have no business losing too. Hell, didn't ECW job Taz out like crazy before he jumped? It's not like Taz refused to do it.
More important, given that wrestling is a fictional storyline, how can you live your gimmick so much that you have such bitterness over losing a belt that is no more than just a PROP?
Yes, the story didn't go as Bret thought, and maybe Bret had a right to be mad, but ultimately, get over it. To punch McMahon in the jaw and storm out like that was awful.
I assume Bret and Shawn's dislike of each other goes way beyond the screwjob. Hopefully, it can be professional.
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Post by cactusjames on Jan 4, 2010 11:03:46 GMT -5
Now you're just being a Shitman mark Tom. He set up one way he'd lose in Canada, to Owen. He said he would not lose the title to anyone where an event was held in Canada. He thinks he's a national fucking monument, and he almost was after that stiff Goldberg kick to the fucking skull. And let's take out the me being an HBK fan and you being a Hart fan.As wrestling fans bret was being a baby. And you forget that under no circumstance could someone from WWF show up with that title on Nitro. The war would have ended and WCW would have won. It was bigger than HBK and Bret and who else could Bret drop the title to? Austin wasn't ready yet, Hunter wasn't over enough, Vince never had faith in Owen past midcard, you want him to drop it to Ahmed Johnson? Or how about Duke the Dumper Drosse or Man Mountain Rock. I'm sure Tatanka would have made an awesome champ. The only other guy was Taker, and guess what? They did that feud earlier in the year. The belt HAD to go to Michaels. And you know better than me, if you're on you're way out, you put the other guy over.
And secondly, Hart bashed Naitch cause he wasn't in Flair's league and Flair made no secret about it. When you got everyone saying you're matches are so one dimensional, wouldn't you take a shot like that at a guy you have real heat with who's the greatest wrestler of all time? Hart is the biggest baby in wrestling. Guess what, when Flair left WWE, he fucking jobbed. The business comes first, am I saying Shawn was never a dick, no not at all. But if anyone had the right to be it was him. If you're HBK and you know you're better than the Shitman, wouldn't you be pissed that fucker got the main event push before you?
So you and the smart marks can love Bret all you want. 50 years from now a list of the 10 best wrestlers will come out, and by that I mean workers not selling tickets. Number 1, Flair. Number 2, Michaels. Live with it.
but if you can sit there and say HBK was an asshole so Bret should be to shows you're being a Hart mark and not putting the business first. All thye times HBK bitched did it ever hurt the company? No. But Bret try to make himself bigger than the business. HBK gets shit for the Curtain Call, like he disrespected the business at a house show. What about Bret? It's tradition when you're leaving the company you job. HBK is one of the longest tenured WWE employees on the roster now. He didn't leave and he didn't fuck over the business when he did. You can't be a wrestling fan and say Bret didn't either.
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Post by cactusjames on Jan 4, 2010 11:13:58 GMT -5
Yeah Hart shouldn't be embarrassed but he can embarrass the company and it's fucking owner. Jesus Tom. I think you're just taking the opposite side of the argument for shits and giggles.
And let's be real for one second. Was HBK a dicl, yes. But who was a better worker in the company during the 90's? Let's go one further, who was IC champ and having better matches than a certain shitman when he was holding the WWF title? Shawn is, was and always will be a better worker than Bret. And no one in the WWE then, and arguably now, can touch Shawn in the ring. The fucking guy got a ladder over for fucks sake. Yes, it isn't professional to refuse to job, but go back to that era. It was a battle every week and Shawn wanted to beat WCW cause his friends went there. If you want to help you're company win the ratings battle, don't you want to be the centerpiece? And don't start the argument the company almost folded cause of HBK, he kept it afloat, and anyone in the business who isn't a Bret Hart lover can admit that.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 4, 2010 11:19:28 GMT -5
James, Bret had no problems jobbing to HBK, he simply did not want to do it in Canada. As part of his contract, that was his right, Vince had given him creative control cause he was that valuable to the company.
You really should read the Hart book. Even if you think what he says is crap, its interesting. Maybe you will see things differently. Tell you what, if you read the Hart book I will do something I said I never would, and read the HBK book.
I have seen it said from MANY sources who were not Hart fans that they came out of reading the book looking at him differently, and respecting and understanding him more.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 4, 2010 11:23:37 GMT -5
That makes sense though--a Hart book is only going to show his point of view, and be biased.
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 4, 2010 11:30:46 GMT -5
If he makes a good enough case for his actions, its worthwhile. Again, a lot of people changed their take on him after reading the book. What do you think HBKs book does? Same damn thing.
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Post by cactusjames on Jan 4, 2010 11:32:06 GMT -5
HBK because of his faith came clean about most if not all the shit from his past run. Bret is bitter and wants to take down the people he felt are responsible for taking him down. Cause you know, he had no control over how his run ended in WWF right?
I know he had creative control, I don't need his book to know that. But when you're leaving the company, you're last match is in Canada, sorry, suck it up and have some class. I don't give a shit what control he had, if Vince is legit worried he might take the belt to WCW if we don't get it off him, again I quote Hunter, fuck him and do business for him. It was not a time to put faith in someone you knew to be spiteful. With his flaws Shawn still has always been a loyal WWE guy, to put that kind of faith in Bret to do the right thing would be stupid and risky. If Shawn is being a dick why is cool for Bret to be the same, we're now of the thinking two wrongs DO equal a right? Bottom line is if you were Vince you would trust Shawn more than Bret, and they did what had to be done. If Bret hadn't made them concerned he would fuck them over why would they still go through with the screwjob?
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Post by cactusjames on Jan 4, 2010 11:37:43 GMT -5
Again shawn is lying cause he doesn't want to look like the bad guy? Of course Bret would say I'll drop the belt.....AFTER the fact. If he was going to be a team player on his way out the door, there would never have been a reason to go through with it. Of course to save face after the fact he's going to say I said I'll drop it to so and so at such and such. And when does creative control cover who the company deems to run with the belt when the previous champ is leaving? It's not Brets call to say this guy will be next WWF champ, if Vince says drop to Shawn, if you're Bret and sticking to your creative control you work out a way to drop to Shawn without being embarrassed. But it's not his call to pick who gets the belt after him, that's a company call and you know it.
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 4, 2010 11:55:48 GMT -5
James, you are off to an amazing degree here.
First off, the whole reason this even came up is because Vince was reneging on a contract he had with Bret, for 20 years service, paying at about 1.5 million annually during the wrestling portion that was going to continue at least 3 years. Vince came out and told Bret that he was not going to fulfill it, and to strike a deal with WCW. So stop with the LOYALTY aspect.
Also, Bret was NOT looking to drop the belt AFTER the fact. These discussions started well over a month before Montreal, and a bunch of dates were in play to drop the belt leading into that match. So you're wrong there too.
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Post by cactusjames on Jan 4, 2010 12:21:40 GMT -5
I'm not off, I don't take that into consideration because of the times. It was a war, the business was changing(something we know Bret hated), and there was a legit concern over Bret taking the belt to Nitro. I love how you keep ignoring that. To me, if that was a legit concern what choice did Bret leave them? And guess what, Vince didn't want Owen or Taker champ, he wanted the belt to get dropped to Michaels. Bret doesn't get to pick who runs with the ball after him. It's a company decision. He had character creative control, which doesn't mean I'll decide who is worthy enough to be WWF champ after me. How aren't you even taking that into consideration. I'm literally getting mad cause this is pure Bret Hart shit. This is exactly what he said, HBK aside, i'm looking at this from a business standpoint. Bret Hart is NOT bigger than wrestling. Want to see how I'm not being biased, the only person EVER to be bigger than the business is Hogan. OK? That's me giving a guy I hate credit. I can do it. Bret doesn't deserve any credit, he was a boring talent. I won't say shitty cause the guy could work but he isn't as good as people make him out to be and he thinks he's better than he is. And he almost fucked over a company by being a fucking baby and putting himself first before the business. I have no sympathy for him. It's not just a line, Bret screwed Bret. If all these dates were talked about why didn't it happen? He got the belt in August, lost in November, tell me these plans and dates? He was ready to drop the belt after 2 months? I know he was planning on going to WCW, cause he was asking for too much fucking money and Vince wasn't going to match an offer for somebody who wasn't worth that price or the length he wanted. Stop acting like everything was out of Bret's control, all the blame doesn't fall on Vince and DX. He could have taken a more diplomatic route but didn't. And when it looked like he was going to jump, with the fucking title Tom, he made his own bed in my mind.
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