$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 23, 2010 7:42:44 GMT -5
From all accounts now this is Hughes' spot to lose. Considering a decision is likely to be made before these guys even start again you can pretty much lock it up that its Hughes' - I am very happy about this. So much more upside as a starter for this guy.
And now Joba can go to the pen, know his role, and concentrate on coming in and trying to blow guys away, without getting too pretty with stuff. Lets face it, the starting experiment was a failure. To go in with Aceves as our 5th starter is pathetic, with a guy like Hughes on the club. Run with Hughes until you want to slow down his innings, and use guys like Aceves and Mitre to fill in those blanks.
For those saying that innings can not be limited smartly and this is a mistake, see Rick Porcello last year. The Tigers were able to use him all year, with a set limit, by simply cutting how deep he went into games for the middle part of the season. They aired him out early, and after the middle slowdown, he could go as deep as he wanted again to close the year. He showed Joba how it should be done!
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 23, 2010 7:56:17 GMT -5
To write off a starter at 24, when he was learning how to start, is just outright dumb.
It was NOT a failure. He never pitched a full year in the majors unrestricted. What you saw was a minor leaguer building up his arm on the major league level. It's like throwing out food after you cook it because it wasn't ready before.
Rick Porcello didn't pitch in the AL East, and wasn't nearly as good as you're making him out to be.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 23, 2010 8:32:12 GMT -5
Rick Porcello was doing what he did at 20, and Joba was flunking at what he was doing at 24. Give me Porcello, and the Tigers showed us how it should have been done there.
Regardless, we are in a lucky position that we dont need Joba to start. Mitch Williams made a good point, summed it all up yesterday, said "why have a servicable 5th starter when you can have a dominating reliever?" BINGO. Thats what people like me and Cho have been saying all along.
Hughes for # 5! Whoo hoo! Suck it, Balls, you flunk again.
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Post by jwmcc on Mar 23, 2010 8:37:27 GMT -5
LOL @ using Mitch Williams as a backup for your arguments..
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 23, 2010 9:09:21 GMT -5
The idea is not to have a serviceable 5th starter, but to develop a top of the rotation guy. Mitch Williams would have left Johan Santana in the pen or given up on Maddux.
Rick Porcello had more time in the minors to build his arm and didn't have his development slowed by injury.
And Rick Porcello did not pitch in the AL East. And for all your Porcello schlong sucking, he pitched a whopping 13 innings more.
Against the Yankees, he got shelled. 3.1 IP, 14.73 ERA Against the Red Sox, he got shelled. 5.1 IP, 6.75 ERA, TWO starts. Against the Blue Jays, he got shelled. 11 IP, 4.91 ERA, two starts.
He did well against the Devil Rays and Orioles.
Against the Angels, he got shelled. 5.0 IP, 7.20 ERA.
He had easier interleague opponents too.
Did Porcello have a better year? Of course. That happens when you have an easier schedule. You pitch more innings, and you get more outs.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Mar 23, 2010 9:52:38 GMT -5
For me in a perfect world and not looking for the future, but just what would be best just for this season, I would have Aceves #5 and Hughes and Joba in the pen as your 7th & 8th inning guys with Marte. But being rational and looking to the future and what is best for the Yanks in the future long term and balancing the present, is Joba in the pen and Hughes as a starter...Hughes has much more upside as a starter then Joba and Joba has the bigger upside in the pen especially with Mo over 40.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 23, 2010 10:07:46 GMT -5
LOL @ using Mitch Williams as a backup for your arguments..
Did I not simply throw that in as an adide, simply reaffirming that is what I have thought all along? Only reason I tacked that comment was I turned on MLB Net while dinner was cooking last night, and within 30 seconds Mitch Williams said that. And that is exactly what I have been saying.
Anyway, its pretty much a done deal, Im very satisfied. PS - Gaudin has been put on waivers.
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Post by Chris on Mar 23, 2010 11:51:15 GMT -5
The story has changed, Balls.
The argument is no longer, "giving up on an ACE STARTER at 24 is dumb."
He's clearly not Ace material. Never will be.
Even the armchair GMs around talk radio are coming around on this point that I have been trumpeting since Day 1.
Joba is a dominant reliever, a mediocre starter.
As Tom said, as I've said, and as the backsides of baseball cards say, top starters have already proven themselves by this point in their careers.
Even Joba seems to have resigned to this fact, joking with Mo, "When are you going to hang it up already?"
Considering Mo's age, I'll take the reliever.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 23, 2010 12:03:37 GMT -5
You can't POSSIBLY know that. He hasn't had a full year as a starter nor has he even hit his prime yet.
Considering Joba's age, he can go back to the pen at any time. They have not exhausted his potential yet.
I want BOTH Hughes and Joba in the rotation eventually. If Hughes outpitches Joba, then by all means, give him the spot, but if that happens, send Joba to Scranton until Hughes gets near his innings limit.
Then bring Joba up and stick Hughes in the pen for the stretch.
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Post by Chris on Mar 23, 2010 12:07:10 GMT -5
Regardless of whether or not you prefer Hughes or Joba, you know that is not going to happen, Balls.
Joba is not going to the minor leagues. That would be a Yankee admission of failure of Igawa proportions....if only from a PR point of view.
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Post by sean on Mar 23, 2010 12:51:22 GMT -5
I think Mitch Williams is one of the best guys on MLB Net, ccertainly one of the best retired players. Magrane as well
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 23, 2010 12:53:21 GMT -5
Anyone with a brain knows that Joba is not Igawa. The spin is simple--and truthful. He didn't make the rotation, and we want him to start. No one would fault them for that.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 23, 2010 13:18:36 GMT -5
The spin is simple--and truthful. He didn't make the rotation, and we want him to start
But this is not truthful. They dont want him to start. Thank God.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 23, 2010 13:42:45 GMT -5
Unfortunately, no one has said that within the Yankee organization.
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Post by pags03 on Mar 23, 2010 23:01:46 GMT -5
I for one am glad that Hughes has won the #5 starter spot, he's more equipped with a full range of stuff than Joba. Joba should be groomed eventually for Mo's spot, Mo though we all think can go forever he can't. Finding that closer is a tough spot, Joba has the make up and showmanship for that position. Andy & Javy possibly won't be around for another year and how likely is it the Yanks can snag another duo alla CC & AJ, they eventually need at least 1 home grown guy and Hughes should finally get his chance for a full year. If our #5 guy is an issue at the end of the season, than we just have bigger issues than that!! Thank god it's close to season; The NBA just doesn't cut it!!!
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Post by jwmcc on Mar 24, 2010 8:24:52 GMT -5
"Finding that closer is a tough spot, Joba has the make up and showmanship for that position"
How can anyone assume Joba has the "makeup" for that position? Outside of those two months in 2007, when has he shown he can handle the pressure? Or have people already forgotten the bugs game or when he coughed up the lead in the World Series last year(that Damon and A-Rod handed the vulture win to him the next inning).
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 26, 2010 8:56:54 GMT -5
Well, glad this is settled. I was incommunicado all day yesterday, so did not get to chime in. Now its down to business. Oh, and keep in mind even if Hughes is limited, it wont be as bad as the Joba rules, cause Hughes got in over 110 innings last year. He would be earmarked for close to 175, which most 5 starters dont get near anyway.
This will work out fine, I think.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 26, 2010 10:05:58 GMT -5
I hope so. I have high hopes for Hughes too. I just think that at this point, Joba should go to the minors and start. Hughes pitched better, and Joba needs to show he can pitch aggressively and with confidence. I think that's better served in Scranton.
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Post by Chris on Mar 26, 2010 10:55:01 GMT -5
Joba can pitch aggressively and consistently....in the 8th inning.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 26, 2010 11:40:13 GMT -5
Unfortunately, pitching in 1 inning will do nothing to continue his development as a starter which is more of what they need. An 8th inning guy is easier to find than a top of the rotation guy.
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Post by Chris on Mar 26, 2010 12:23:08 GMT -5
Trying to make Joba a starter reminds me of the 80s when NFL teams were all trying to convert Olympic sprinters into Wide Receivers and Corners.
Can't force something that isn't there.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 26, 2010 14:15:32 GMT -5
Except that Joba actually IS a starter, and wasn't a reliever until he got to the majors.
It IS there. He just wasn't ready to be a MLB starter. He's 24, not 29.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 26, 2010 14:17:15 GMT -5
Balls, get over it. He is not starting with this team. If he doesnt spit the bit he may end up our next closer.
And the Yankees do not necessarily need to build homegrown starters. They simply go out and buy the best of the best that is out there at the time. Its the Yankee way.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 26, 2010 14:19:47 GMT -5
That's why you would never be a good GM. It's actually very rare that the best starters even make it to free agency, because all these so called poverty stricken teams magically find the money to keep the best ones.
CC was an exception, not a rule these days.
Joba's starting career is not necessarily over. Hell, he may shit the bed in the 8th inning role too. Either way, the minors is a better place for him.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Mar 26, 2010 15:28:15 GMT -5
Yeah Tom, maybe you've heard of guys like Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, Johan Santana and Josh Beckett to name a few. You need to research like Balls does.
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Post by heartybooooo on Mar 26, 2010 15:33:58 GMT -5
It's funny that you listed all those pitchers. NONE of them changed teams as a free agent. All were traded and signed extensions or not (in the case of Lee). Beckett signed and it bought out arbitration and some free agency.
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Post by heartybooooo on Mar 26, 2010 15:52:10 GMT -5
And here is some unbiased perspective which mirrors mine and Balls' sentiment (from Baseball Prospectus, via ESPN.com)
In naming Phil Hughes their fifth starter and sending Joba Chamberlain off to an unspecified role in the bullpen, the Yankees tacitly acknowledged that in their frantic efforts to protect Chamberlain's health by limiting his innings, they had failed to develop him properly. But considering the bizarre way in which they're treated their talented young right-hander the past two seasons, it's not a surprise.
After struggling with his command early last season, Chamberlain caught fire in the immediate aftermath of the All-Star break, allowing just two runs in three starts. The Yankees picked that moment to impose the Joba Rules 2.0, and it was no coincidence that Chamberlain was no longer the same pitcher. The mental effort he needed to succeed on the mound was hijacked by his absorption in "The Rules." Would he be yanked in the second inning if he burned too many pitches? If he was given a quick hook, would he pitch again in five days or ten?
It says something that Chamberlain was bumped from the playoff rotation for Chad Gaudin, a pitcher the Yankees just released. The move liberated Chamberlain, at least to a certain extent, and he looked more like a pitcher and less like the oppressed last man on Kafka’s pitching staff. His aggregate postseason performance (6 1/3 innings, nine hits, two runs, one walk, seven strikeouts) was effective but hardly dominating. In his attenuated spring training performance, Chamberlain was neither, allowing 10 hits, seven walks, and 12 runs in 6 2/3 innings.
That last number, 6 2/3, is key to the Yankees' confession of Chamberlain confusion: It’s a tiny sample by which to judge a pitcher who is not only a three-year veteran, but has finally arrived at the Yankees’ arbitrarily determined point of physical maturity, the moment when there would be no more rules. They wouldn’t judge CC Sabathia by fewer than seven innings -- indeed, Sabathia has been hit hard this spring, but it’s assumed he’s working his way into shape. In Chamberlain’s case, it is impossible to separate the struggles of March from those of August and September. However well Hughes pitched in the 2009 regular season, no matter how promisingly he pitched this spring, there can be no clearer admission that the Yankees no longer know what they have in Chamberlain than their willingness to demote him from the rotation based on such a small sample.
The sad truth of pitching is that it may be inherently injurious. Until the moment pitchers can wear a monitor that gives teams a real-time look at the inner workings of their arms, there is no sure way to prevent pitching injuries. Sure, there are common-sense things to avoid, like 150-pitch outings in a cold April rain. But to pretend, as the Yankees did, that they could spot the injury inflection point and somehow steer Chamberlain around it was no more than the wishful thinking of a team that hadn’t reared a young pitcher in years and had no clue how to go about it. Now they have a pitcher who is theoretically healthy but has diminished control and reduced velocity, and looks over his shoulder when he pitches. As BP’s injury expert Will Carroll wrote, “Joba may be remembered as the nadir of the 'save young pitchers' movement. Everything they did was to keep him healthy. Well, he is." In other words, congratulations, Yankees. You got what you wanted, but lost what you had.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Mar 26, 2010 16:01:36 GMT -5
It's funny that you listed all those pitchers. NONE of them changed teams as a free agent. All were traded and signed extensions or not (in the case of Lee). Beckett signed and it bought out arbitration and some free agency. True, however impending free agency expedited their ouster from the former club.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 26, 2010 17:24:42 GMT -5
Maybe with Beckett, but Halladay was locked up by the Blue Jays during his youth, and while he obviously still has good years left, he's 33, and the Blue Jays got the best out of him.
Cliff Lee didn't even become an elite pitcher until 2008.
The Twins also signed Santana beyond his initial free agency, and didn't move him again until his 30s. Clearly they knew something the Mets didn't.
And Beckett was traded by the Marlins, who are assholes and a disgrace to the game.
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Post by whalerfan on Mar 29, 2010 7:47:22 GMT -5
The Beckett trade has been great for Florida. They'd do that one again in a heartbeat.
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