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Post by joetee316 on Feb 22, 2010 9:42:30 GMT -5
Who do you guys prefer? I initially wanted Hughes and kinda still want him but lately I've been thinking Gaudin instead of Mitre. Now they signed Chan Ho Park too, so we might have to throw him into the equation. Gaudin was decent with the Padres. Good amount of K's and decent job. Granted it was the NL and a pitchers park but he is definitely better than Mitre. Never liked Chan Ho. We all saw what Joba did last year. At times it was good but the majority of times those walks and wildness came into play too often.
But I guess that's what spring training is for. It won't be so bad if Hughes and Joba help out the bullpen and make it stronger.
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Post by heartybooooo on Feb 22, 2010 9:52:55 GMT -5
I think the best long term answer for the Yankees is for Chamberlain to win it, then Hughes to get some starts during the year to bring his innings count up so he is unencumbered going forward. Having 2 good young starters (even if they are only the 3 and 4 starters) for relatively cheap is good. However, if Gaudin wins and you have both Hughes and Chamberlain in the bullpen with Mo, that is pretty imposing.
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 22, 2010 10:11:56 GMT -5
Long term, I'd really like to see BOTH of them in the rotation, but for now, Joba is the one with the arm that's been built to throw 190 innings or so. Hughes should be ready in case someone gets hurt. The other guys don't really matter much because they're mostly mid relief guys.
Long term, it's best to let Hughes start in the minors and join the team in August, but obviously they won't do that. Glad Gaudin is on the team, but I think he helps the pen more at this time.
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Post by sean on Feb 22, 2010 10:29:20 GMT -5
I'd like to see the eason start with joba in the rotation, and Hughes in the pen. hughes will have a very low innings limit, lower than joba last year. So if he starts, he'll either have to average 4-5 IP per game, or only make 20 or so starts. This is Joba's last chance to start. He has to make big improvements, no more 100 pitches thru 4 innings, no more 3-2 counts on every batter. If he doesn't make improvements, flip him & hughes around the all star break
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 22, 2010 10:50:40 GMT -5
Definitely. Though I wouldn't have such a short leash on Joba. I want him to have that 175-190IP range, and 2011 in the rotation. Let him BE a starter. Even in 2011, he'll be in his mid 20s.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Feb 22, 2010 11:51:49 GMT -5
Hughes should be our # 5. Joba should be back in the pen, where he was very imposing. And, as far as I am concerned, he flunked his audition last year.
Hughes has much more of an upside as a longterm starter, so its time to get him there and stop screwing around. He gets up to whatever limit you put him at this year, move him to the pen for the end of the year and playoffs, and use guys like Gaudin or Park to fill the starts.
Time to get the ball moving on Hughes' career. Great upside, make him the #5.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Feb 22, 2010 12:29:24 GMT -5
Agree with Tom 100%
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 22, 2010 12:54:14 GMT -5
While I agree that moving Hughes into the rotation is great, he should be stretched out in the minors, so not to screw up the bullpen, and it's stupid to throw away Joba's potential after they spent 2 years to get him to this point.
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Post by Chris on Feb 22, 2010 13:04:24 GMT -5
"Hughes should be our # 5. Joba should be back in the pen"
Bingo! That is all.
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Post by 9 on Feb 22, 2010 15:14:35 GMT -5
I've been in the "Joba as a Starter" camp the entire time, but I also think Hughes should be the No. 5 and Joba should be the setup man.
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 23, 2010 10:20:50 GMT -5
Again, they need to let the guy actually start and learn the craft. Most people at Joba's age would have spent the last few years in the minors stretching out and progressing. Yes, Joba is a very good reliever, but most solid starters can make that transition.
Joba can do more long term as a starter, and as long as he shows improvement, he should be kept in the rotation.
Even if you put him back in the bullpen in 2 years, he'll still be in his mid 20s.
Plenty of time left for him.
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Post by sean on Feb 23, 2010 10:51:48 GMT -5
If they do put him back in the pen, that has to be it. No more jerking him around. If he's not a starter, then he's Mariano's heir apparent, be it in 1 year or 5. Let's see if he can improve, significantly, over last year
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 23, 2010 10:52:42 GMT -5
Knock a half a run off that ERA and that's improvement. Let's see him go deeper in games and less 3-2 counts.
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Post by heartybooooo on Feb 23, 2010 10:55:18 GMT -5
I don't consider last year a proper audition. He was getting jerked around on the innings limit and all. The guy has had to learn how to pitch in the spotlight rather than in the minors.
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 23, 2010 11:06:25 GMT -5
True, but at the same time, in most cases, pitchers are in the minors long enough so that when they get to the majors, they have stretched their arms out so that the ONLY issue is pitching in the spotlight. In Joba's case, he had the Bronx PLUS the fact that his arm wasn't stretched out for 200 innings.
Now at least, the innings rules are done and he can work to get better. In a way, this is his true rookie year as a starter.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Feb 23, 2010 11:29:58 GMT -5
Thats horsecrap, Balls. The number of kids pitching in the majors these days, be it for budget reasons or talent levels, is immense. There are plenty of kids learning on the job, who outpitched Joba, and are just better.
Hughes has more upside, thats the bottom line. Put Joba in the pen. If they - and he - are set on starting, put him down in the minors so he can do all that "learning" that you guys keep whining about. Then call him up if, and only if, he gets it together.
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 23, 2010 13:40:09 GMT -5
And again, as has been discussed before, those kids in the majors either suck, have innings limits, or SPENT TIME IN THE MINORS.
Hughes is the one that would need to go to the minors since HUGHES is the one that hasn't been stretched out. Did you know Hughes was in the bullpen last year?
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Feb 23, 2010 13:42:11 GMT -5
Hughes has more upside. Put him in the rotation, set a limit on him, and when he gets near it move him to the pen and give his starts to Gaudin, Aceves, Park, someone.
Put Joba back in the pen, or give him the minor league time to work stuff out that you all seem to desire for him.
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Post by heartybooooo on Feb 23, 2010 14:36:46 GMT -5
Or we could see how camp plays out and which pitcher pitches best and that pitcher can be the 5th starter until he doesn't deserve the spot anymore. I don't think either Balls or I are saying give the spot to Joba, but we are saying he still deserves the opportunity as his previous opportunity wasn't an unfettered one.
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 23, 2010 15:15:51 GMT -5
True. Let's face it, if Joba gets shelled in the spring, and Hughes is lights out, it's a no brainer. Maybe Tom's right and Hughes DOES have more upside. That doesn't change that Joba does have a very good upside. I want BOTH in the rotation eventually, and let the next crop of minor league pitching round out the pen.
Hell, I hear Brackman is throwing a little bit better (though obviously several years away).
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Post by joetee316 on Mar 17, 2010 10:07:53 GMT -5
As of right now, Hughes has the lead. He's been untouchable this spring while Joba hovers around 27.00 with his ERA. Joba's pitching against Philly today or tomorrow so we'll see what he does. Girardi says he hopes to have his decision in 10 days.
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Post by Chris on Mar 17, 2010 11:03:10 GMT -5
Why would the best long term answer for the Yankees be for Chamberlain to win it?
Wouldn't the best long term answer for the Yankees be for the best starting pitcher to win it? They're all young, except for Gaudin, and even he is only 27 or so.
My personal feeling is, in fact, that it would be a blessing in disguise if Joba fails to win this job. That way we get a satisfactory fifth guy who is not on an infantile pitch count, and Joba can go back to where he has already proven he can dominate - as the set up guy and hopefully as Mariano's eventual successor.
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Post by Chris on Mar 17, 2010 11:11:26 GMT -5
Joba is not gonna erase a 27.00 ERA and make people forget how good Hughes has been with one good outing.
Look, Joba has never been as highly touted as Hughes as a starter, and we're seeing reality, at least as it pertains to being a starter, bear that out.
I don't get this insistence of trying to pound a square peg into a round hole with Joba. Because he can throw 101MPH and blow guys away over the course of one inning, we have to make him a starter by brute force?
People's arguments all along have been that an ACE is much more valuable that a dominant reliever. Well, have we not seen enough of Joba as mediocre, usually less-than-mediocre, starter ... a guy who is bringing up the rear in a race for a bottom of the rotation guy ... to say once and for all that Joba is NOT "ACE" material.
He's not....done! Let him go back to dominating late in the game. He's not a semi-truck who can tow the long haul - he's a dragster good for short bursts of power.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 17, 2010 12:39:55 GMT -5
Actually Joba had been as highly touted as Hughes. He got drafted in a different year and made it to the big leagues faster. Joba is also closer to being a big league starter since he has the innings under his belt and finally they are in a position to take the kid gloves off.
If he doesn't make the rotation, they should send him to Scranton.
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Post by Chris on Mar 17, 2010 13:44:17 GMT -5
Uhh, we have seen more than enough from Joba Chamberlain to know that any past predictions of him being a frontline ace are bunk!
We've also seen enough of him to know that he can dominate in relief roles.
The question is no longer Joba the Ace Starter versus Joba the Dominant Reliever. The legitimacy of that debate has long since been disproven.
Future Aces don't struggle mightily out of the gate in a spring training in battle for a fifth starter position, after arguably a season-and-quarter to a season-and-a-half's worth of starting major league level experience under their belts.
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Post by heartybooooo on Mar 17, 2010 13:55:51 GMT -5
As Balls pointed out, if Hughes wins the job then he will be on an innings limitation similar to Joba last year. And it's not just an ace that is more valuable, but through to a 3rd or 4th starter. Look at some of the contracts to those guys as compared to closers, let alone set up guys. Joba may not even be a competent starter, but I don't think the Yankees have given him a proper opportunity either. I, for one, would like to find out. And I agree with Balls that this may include a trip to the minors and he can be Hughes mid-season replacement when he goes to the pen because of his innings limitation.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 17, 2010 14:49:14 GMT -5
We have NOT seen enough of Joba. Again--Joba basically developed in the majors instead of the minors like everyone else. By your logic, Johan Santana should have stayed a reliever, and Greg Maddux should never have made it.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 17, 2010 15:03:58 GMT -5
Actually Joba had been as highly touted as Hughes
Eh, not reallly. Hughes has always been rated higher, Joba's infinite domination when he first hit the majors aside. Hughes simply has much better secondary stuff, and was always the higher touted of the two. Hughes has more upside, and scouts predict a better career. Time to put Hughes where he belongs, as a starter. Joba goes to the pen.
If they are REALLY determined to do as Cho said, and ram him as a starter even if hes not shown he can be, let him do it in the minors.
Anyone who prefers an also-ran like Aceves in the role is baseball ignorant. The guy is not an answer. Lets stop pooh poohing around, put Hughes as the 5, and put Joba in the pen.
And who cares about a limit on Hughes. He would not be much a factor setting up for the set-up man anyway. Hey, the Tigers had a cap on Porcello, and got a full year out of him! Hughes probably would not eat up his pitchcounts by throwing balls all over like Joba did.
Heres what you do, let Hughes air it out at the start, and slow him down later in the year. He is our NUMBER FIVE, not our number 2. And at that time, give Gaudin or Aceves spot starts. Or try someone breaking free in the minors this year. But give it to Hughes already!
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 17, 2010 15:43:55 GMT -5
I AGREE that if he doesn't win the job now, let him go to the minors rather than the pen.
And the old, "he's our 5 not our 2" is a lousy argument. A game started by your 5 counts just as much in the standings.
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Post by Chris on Mar 17, 2010 16:32:56 GMT -5
We can all play armchair GM, but the reality is that Joba Chamberlain, after the legacy of work he has built up at the Major League Level, is not going back to the minors…period. This is not Rick Ankiel situation where a guy is learning to play an entirely new position. Joba will make or break his career at the Major League Level at this point. If he’s being sent to the minors at this stage, we’ve got another Jose Contreras or Kei Igawa situation on our hands – a guy we’re desperately trying to revive pretending all hope is not lost when it really is. No way are the Yanks going that route with Joba.
Joba will win the 5th spot, or he will not. All signs seem to point to NOT!
Balls, you crack me up with the “not enough time to judge” argument. Seriously? You ran this same argument for Melky and after a good 2+ seasons of frequent playing time under his belt. And guess how that ended – Melky is now a 4th outfielder on a team that is very thirsty for good starting outfielders. You were way off the mark on Melky and you’re about as far off on this one. Seriously – Maddux and Santana? What similarities can you draw between Joba’s, Maddux’s, and Santana’s first 40-60 starts of their careers? By this stage, both Maddux and Santana (especially Maddux) had either firmly entrenched themselves or firmly proven that they were on the cusp of being quality front half of the rotation guys – in wins accumulated, Ks, and even ERAs. Joba is LIGHT YEARS away from that. By this stage, neither Maddux nor Santana were floundering in a last-ditch desperate attempt eke out a 5th starter’s role.
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