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Post by Chris on Mar 4, 2010 16:34:26 GMT -5
Don't look now...
The Michael Kay show dug up the old Mattingly/Puckett debate today...for what? To argue that Mattingly should be in the Hall???
NOOOOOOOOO!!!
To Kay's credit, he is arguing that anyone who compares Bernie to Puckett defensively is out of their mind.
They're no using this to argue BERNIE WILLIAMS' HOF credentials!!!!!!!!
In the immortal words of Michael Corleone, "Just when I thought I was out................"
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 4, 2010 17:14:23 GMT -5
Defensively, agreed.
But offensively, Bernie actually accomplished more.
More HRs, more RBI, higher OPS. More SB, more than double the walks. Significantly higher OBP.
I doubt Bernie will get a sniff, since he's a Yankee, but that's just more evidence that Puckett had a different standard. I guess wrapping a telephone cord around your wife's neck is a HOF stat.
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Post by Chris on Mar 4, 2010 19:25:27 GMT -5
Balls - essentially same number of hits
Bernie had more power numbers. Bernie also had almost a season and half's worth more At-Bats.
Puckett had a .318 lifetime average, Bernie had .297.
The Mattingly argument is much more compelling.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 4, 2010 20:19:56 GMT -5
Over the course of a career, so what about the at bats?
Was Hank Aaron's HR record given an asterisk because it took him several thousand more at bats to get there?
I hear you about the Mattingly argument. But over a career, at the same position, Bernie did a lot of things Puckett didn't do.
I'm not saying Bernie should be a first ballot HOFer. I do he's a borderline guy, and under the lesser standard they applied to let Puckett in, he has a very strong case.
Puckett may be the single worst 1st ballot HOFer.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 4, 2010 22:37:13 GMT -5
Balls, what part of Pucketts lifetime batting average was 23 points higher than Bernie's did you miss?
Bernie will get even less of a sniff of the Hall then Mattingly did, and rightfully so. Those two guys votes combined at their highest wont even get close to what Puckett got himself to get into the Hall.
Balls, keep hating on Puckett. If he had been a Yankee you would have his name tatooed on your ass.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 5, 2010 6:55:47 GMT -5
Tom, since when do YOU care about batting average. Compared to the .240 hitters you lust over, Bernie's .297 average should make him seem like Ty Cobb to you.
.297 is a HOF level batting average, so how it compares to Puckett's is irrelevant.
He also has a higher OPS than Puckett, a higher OBP because he walked twice as much, more HRs, SBs, etc.
Keep sucking off Puckett's rotting corpse. If you had been his wife, you would have a telephone cord wrapped around your neck.
And yes, Bernie will not make the HOF. It just shows the hypocrisy and stupidity of Puckett's election.
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Post by Chris on Mar 5, 2010 13:28:04 GMT -5
"Puckett may be the single worst 1st ballot HOFer."
Correction - once it happens, Trevor Hoffman will be. The Ultimate Big Fish in a Small pond. A Legacy of post-season, division-clinching, All-Star failures. As overrated as there's ever been.
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Post by Chris on Mar 5, 2010 13:29:26 GMT -5
"Keep sucking off Puckett's rotting corpse. If you had been his wife, you would have a telephone cord wrapped around your neck."
This was one of Balls' funnier moments!!!
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 5, 2010 13:42:05 GMT -5
Hoffman was a big fish in a small pond, but I don't think anyone can doubt his deserving of being in the HOF. Yes, he failed in the postseason, but he didn't get that many chances either.
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Post by Chris on Mar 5, 2010 14:06:22 GMT -5
He flubbed in the post-season, he flubbed a one-game playoff to get to the post-season (maybe two), he flubbed an All-Star game when the results counted.
And he's blown plenty of saves.
I don't doubt that his numbers warrant the Hall. I just have a real issue with the situations in which he compiled his numbers - on a bad team in a bad division with no significant success.
I mean...he is a major league baseball player. He faced the competition that was put before him. I can't rightly say he didn't earn those numbers. It's just a Catch-22....Hoffman was in the right place at the right time that enabled an otherwise mediocre pitcher to compile all-world numbers. But I will always hold the opinion that his numbers are not an accurate reflection of how good a pitcher he was.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Mar 5, 2010 14:54:39 GMT -5
All-Star Game?
Really?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 5, 2010 15:24:02 GMT -5
Yes, the NL isn't the AL. And no, he's not Mo. But I don't consider postseason failures to be something that should keep out a HOFer who is an obvious HOFer. I think the postseason should basically be something that should be considered for a borderline candidate if the postseason helps his chances. It's too small of a sample to ever count against someone--at least for me.
Ok, Hoffman has stunk in the postseason for the most part, but I could never argue against his HOF status.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 5, 2010 15:26:32 GMT -5
To argue against Hoffmans HOF status is asinine. I cant believe the idea was even bought up. Absolutely laughable, and a horrible case of Yankee elitism.
And, even if, Balls nailed it for once....to crap a guy cause of postseason failures, which some of the best names in baseball history have attached to their names as well, is just stupid.
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Post by Chris on Mar 5, 2010 17:10:37 GMT -5
I'm not arguing against his Hall Of Fame numbers.
I agree to keep him out of the Hall Of Fame would be asinine.
I just have this nagging feeling about the guy that if he were not pitching the overwhelming majority of his games in meaningless situations, if the overwhelming majority of his games hadn't taken place while the Padres were a total non-factor in the playoff picture, we'd be looking at a drastically different legacy.
In no way could I ever justify Hoffman NOT being in the Hall. I just think that he excelled when the the pressure was at it's lowest....and luckily for him, throughout the bulk of his career, there never was any pressure. In the minuscule percentage of his appearances that actually did have some post-season ramifications (INCLUDING All Star Games of late) he absolutely SUCKED!
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Post by IronHorse4 on Mar 5, 2010 22:49:52 GMT -5
Chris didn't say that he would keep Hoffman out. He said that Hoffman would be (if it happens) the worst first-ballot HOFer ever.
Like many of your opinions, we have another headscratcher here. I mean, forget about the All-Star Game, please. I know the Padres won the division that year, but the All-Star Game really meaning something...come on. Never heard All-Star Game performance sullying someone's reputation. Winning the ASG means that if you get into the playoffs AND win two series, maybe you get an extra home game. Big stakes there.
I mean, I guess maybe he would be in the running for being the worst, given the list of first ballot players, but you make it sound like the guy sucked period. What did he have, like, three bad games in the postseason? And one of those against one of the best teams in baseball history?
Still can't get over the All-Star Game point, though. Wow.
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Post by 9 on Mar 6, 2010 10:35:31 GMT -5
But his poor performance in the All-Star Game is the only thing keeping Atlee Hammaker out of the Hall of Fame.
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