$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 9, 2007 15:47:30 GMT -5
LOL! Says who? You???
That said, you should change your avatar. I am on a high-speed computer, and it still looks like he is running in super slo-mo. The effect is not there. Plus I am bored looking at it.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 9, 2007 15:54:02 GMT -5
It's the bionic man. He's SUPPOSED to run in slo-mo. But in reality, he's running really fast!
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 9, 2007 15:58:11 GMT -5
You've had it since this board started. Time to change things up, after almost 1700 posts with it.
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Post by grover on Jan 9, 2007 16:10:42 GMT -5
I'm on the fence with Blyleven. Tommy John is a fucking joke though.
Who's next? Lee Smith and John Franco for staying in the game for ages and currently having more saves than Mariano Rivera? LOL!!
You know when longevity counts? When you're Hank Aaron. When you're mediocre through and through, it means you were pretty healthy.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 9, 2007 16:14:23 GMT -5
Or you had successful Tommy John surgery.
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Post by grover on Jan 9, 2007 16:16:09 GMT -5
Well, seems that having a surgery named after you means more than being one of the most feared hitters of your era. LOL
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 9, 2007 16:19:19 GMT -5
Don Mattingly.....9.9 % of the vote.
LOL!
Good luck getting him in, Balls!
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 9, 2007 16:21:27 GMT -5
Again, the only joke is the system. And the idea that Blyleven is borderline while John is a joke, is a joke. The two are the same.
Don Mattingly may not be in the HOF, but unlike Puckett, he's at least not dead either.
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Post by grover on Jan 9, 2007 16:46:14 GMT -5
The fact that you can't grasp the process is a joke.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 9, 2007 17:14:14 GMT -5
I can grasp the process fine. But I call malarky when I see it and don't accept it just because a bunch of "experts" and I use that term loosely, say so.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jul 29, 2007 17:27:05 GMT -5
Congrats to the 2007 HOF class, and a tip of the glass to Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jul 29, 2007 18:06:24 GMT -5
There was some sort of Orioles equipment attendant, something not unlike Pete Sheehey back in the day.
Anyway, he had been at every Orioles home game since the early 1960s--over 3000 games, not missing one.
Today, he broke his streak to watch Ripken go into the HOF.
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Post by 9 on Jul 29, 2007 19:51:44 GMT -5
Yeah, Sterling and Waldman blabbed about it endlessly. He's the umpire's attendant. In fact, I think he missed last (Saturday) night and today.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jul 29, 2007 19:56:10 GMT -5
Ripken must have been jealous over that streak.
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Post by drock2006 on Jul 29, 2007 22:00:10 GMT -5
With a very thin class becoming eligible next year, I wonder if there willl be a strong push for Rice and Goose? If they do get in, on the 30th anniversary of 1978, they can milk the rivalry some more.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jul 30, 2007 5:44:45 GMT -5
Goose yes, Rice no. Rice only belongs in on the lower Kirby Puckett standard. His stats just aren't good enough. His lifetime average is .298, he only has 382 career HRs, and never won a gold glove. He was a very good ballplayer in his day no doubt, but not a HOFer.
Yet if you do lower the bar for him like they did Puckett, start building a plaque.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jul 30, 2007 7:22:45 GMT -5
Ripken must have been jealous over that streak.
Hardly. Ripken is the guy who invited him and funded his entire trip to Cooperstown.
As to the HOF next year, Rice - yes. Rice was possibly the most dangerous hitter in the game during the bulk of his tenure.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jul 30, 2007 7:33:01 GMT -5
EXACTLY. By inviting him to Cooperstown during a known Orioles homestand, and funding it, Ripken ended this guy's streak. Jealousy. Pure jealousy.
Rice was a badass in his day, but when you look at his career, it doesn't stack up with the all time greats. He hit over 30 HRs just 4 times, and over 40 just once.
The man was a very good ballplayer, but he falls short of the cut for the all-time elite--unless of course you lower the bar for him like they did Puckett.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jul 30, 2007 7:39:57 GMT -5
He hit over 30 HRs just 4 times, and over 40 just once.
Something that most of his peers were not able to match. His overall body of work makes the cut. He'll be in, I am confident of that.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jul 30, 2007 8:05:31 GMT -5
His overall body of work is not good enough without dropping the standard.
Dave Kingman hit 30 HRs more times than Rice. In fact, he had more career HRs than Rice.
Rice is a HOFer well before Kingman, but the point is, Rice only has 382 HRs, did not set any major records, did not have a lifetime .300 average, and did not reach any major milestones.
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Post by mac0822 on Jul 30, 2007 8:23:11 GMT -5
Rice is a HOFer for one reason: He was the most feared hitter in the AL. This was during a time that 30 HR's actually meant something & a lifetime .298 hitter isn't a bad thing.
When I look at HOF, I look at dominance & "were they ever a top guy at their position". Rice was both for a 5-8 year stretch which makes him a HOFer in my book.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jul 30, 2007 8:28:41 GMT -5
EXACTLY. I am with Mac on this one.
Its funny that the same people that lobby for Bernie Williams to be in the Hall lambaste the mention of Jim Rice, who was much better.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jul 30, 2007 8:42:16 GMT -5
Don Mattingly was also the most feared hitter in the AL. Kirby Puckett NEVER was the most feared hitter in the AL.
Rice only hit 382 HRs and did not have a lifetime .300 average. So for how long could he have been the most feared hitter in the AL? 3 years? 1977-1979 that claim could be valid.
Then he faded until about 1983-1986 when he had a resurgence, but was not the most feared hitter in that period. Not that he wasn't great during that time, but his career didn't last long enough. No major milestones. If he dominated for a long time, he would have at least hit 400 HRs. He didn't.
And Mattingly was the top guy at his position and in the league for a 5 year stretch.
The only way Rice deserves it is if they lower the standard like they did for Puckett.
And now that both careers are done, there is no question Jim Rice would belong ahead of Bernie. Rice had a slightly higher average, 100 more HRs, 100 more hits, 300 more RBI, and outslugged Bernie in pretty much every offensive category.
For Bernie to belong in the HOF, he would have needed a few more 200 hit seasons to get closer to 3000 hits. At best, Bernie deserves to stay on the ballot for a few years, but he should never get close.
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Post by mac0822 on Jul 30, 2007 9:29:02 GMT -5
I'm not for "watering down" the HOF & I'm not being a Boston homer here. I just remember Rice being the Pujous of the 80's. He was putting up 30/120 seasons when you could count on one hand how many did that. His 382 HR's then is more impressive than someone hitting 500 HR now.
Mattingly is tough for me. I think the fact that he played 1st (well might I add) hurts him. Guys want 500HR+ out of that position it seems. To me - he's as borderline as it gets for the HOF.
Puckett was put in because of sympathy & 2 WS titles. He was NOT a HOF player.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jul 30, 2007 10:06:54 GMT -5
Rice was not Pujols though. Never was. Like I mentioned, Rice only hit 30 HR or mor a few times. Pujols has never hit LESS than 34 HR. I realize comparing eras is tough, but Rice never was THAT good.
Rice did have some sick seasons, especially for his era. I wouldn't go as far as to say that 382HR then is more impressive than 500HR now, though I get what you're saying.
Other people in that era hit more HR than Rice, including several people that shouldn't even be considered for the HOF, like Dave Kingman. And there were some no brainers that beat his career numbers as well, like Winfield.
Rice was what he was, a notch below HOFer level. The HOF really needs to have a tough standard. You should be among the all time greats.
I think Rice's case is strengthened by the lowering of the standard in recent years. I don't think Puckett is even borderline for the HOF let alone a 1st ballot guy. Yet if he's in, I think you open the door to similar players on that level, LIKE Mattingly and Rice, neither of whom belonged until Puckett got in. And no, I don't think you need 500HRs to get in as a 1B. Mattingly wouldn't be the worst 1B in the HOF.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Jul 30, 2007 11:31:04 GMT -5
Rice no
Balls again your baseball acumen is so low it is only matched by your wrestling acumen. Jim Rice was the most feared slugger in the AL for a decade. I remember attending games in the mid - 70s to early 80s against the Yanks, dreading him being in the batter's box. Look at his offesnsive numbers compared to people of that day and for that decade. To me a decade of dominance is more than enough to qualify..........
Mac you are correct..Rice is an HOFer hands down and I am shocked to this day that he is not in yet.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jul 30, 2007 11:36:20 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing some more sanity into this discussion, Cap. Totally agreed on your wording there, Rice put the fear of God in the entire American League. Its funny, if he had worn pinstripes Balls would be clamoring to get his number on the wall.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Jul 30, 2007 11:57:10 GMT -5
Baseball-reference.com is running too slow for me to look at this stuff today, but as Balls keeps throwing the "382 HRs" around like it's nothing...I'm racking my brain trying to think of who might have hit more HRs than Rice during that 10-year span ('75-'84 or so). It was a dead ball in those days, and Rice was crushing them as well or better than anyone. Rice was a monster of his time. While I would probably stop short of calling him the Pujols of his time, it certainly wouldn't be because of a ridiculous comparison like Pujols never hitting less than 34 HRs a year, when most people who watch baseball outside the confines of Yankee Stadium realize that Pujols plays in an era where the ball flies out of the park compared to that of Rice's dead-ball era. I am confident without looking at stats, however, that no one hit more in one season during that span than Rice's 46 in '78. And another thing....if there's no strike in '81, Rice probably has 400. I know....if my aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle. But Rice was definitely the most feared power hitter of his time. Hell, he led the league with 39 in 1983....well after Balls' claim of his being feared only from '77-'79. But Rice has 3 strikes against him with Balls: - Balls didn't see him in his prime
- He didn't play for the Yankees
- He played for the Red Sox
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Post by jwmcc on Jul 30, 2007 12:10:34 GMT -5
Here is where Rice ranked top 10 in the league in certain categories:
Batting Average 1975 AL-.309-4 1977 AL-.320-6 1978 AL-.315-3 1979 AL-.325-4 1982 AL-.309-7 1986 AL-.324-5
Slugging % 1975 AL-.491-9 1976 AL-.482-2 1977 AL-.593-1 1978 AL-.600-1 1979 AL-.596-2 1980 AL-.504-7 1983 AL-.550-2 1986 AL-.490-10
OPS 1976 AL-.797-10 1977 AL-.969-2 1978 AL-.970-1 1979 AL-.977-3 1983 AL-.911-4 1986 AL-.874-7
Runs 1975 AL-92-4 1977 AL-104-4 1978 AL-121-2 1979 AL-117-3 1984 AL-98-9 1986 AL-98-10
Hits 1975 AL-174-9 1977 AL-206-3 1978 AL-213-1 1979 AL-201-2 1981 AL-128-7 1983 AL-191-5 1984 AL-184-9 1986 AL-200-5
Total Bases 1975 AL-277-6 1976 AL-280-3 1977 AL-382-1 1978 AL-406-1 1979 AL-369-1 1981 AL-199-6 1983 AL-344-1 1984 AL-307-7 1986 AL-303-7
Home Runs 1976 AL-25-4 1977 AL-39-1 1978 AL-46-1 1979 AL-39-2 1980 AL-24-9 1981 AL-17-7 1983 AL-39-1
RBI 1975 AL-102-5 1977 AL-114-3 1978 AL-139-1 1979 AL-130-2 1981 AL-62-10 1983 AL-126-1 1984 AL-122-2 1985 AL-103-9 1986 AL-110-4
Extra-Base Hits 1975 AL-55-8 1976 AL-58-3 1977 AL-83-2 1978 AL-86-1 1979 AL-84-2 1983 AL-74-2
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Post by jwmcc on Jul 30, 2007 12:15:06 GMT -5
"I am confident without looking at stats, however, that no one hit more in one season during that span than Rice's 46 in '78."
Between '75'-'84, no one in the American League came close to 46, and only a few players, George Foster, Mike Schmidt, and Dave Kingman topped it, all in the NL. It wasn't until McGwire in '87 with 49 home runs did anyone supplant Rice in power hitting in the AL.
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