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Post by 9 on Jan 6, 2010 21:13:27 GMT -5
It may take years to break that barrier, the same way it took years for a closer to finally get elected. Too many old farts have votes.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 6, 2010 21:16:26 GMT -5
If a pure DH IS going to break that barrier, should Edgar be that guy? Or should they wait for someone even better-- like a 500 HR guy?
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Post by heartybooooo on Jan 7, 2010 7:40:33 GMT -5
I think it would be better if Edgar got in and we got away from some of those old bogeys like 500 HR. If it is not Edgar, I would think Frank Thomas will be first as a primary DH.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 7, 2010 7:59:24 GMT -5
But even Frank Thomas had 971 games at 1B under his belt. Edgar played 75 percent of the time at DH.
I think Frank Thomas with that 521 HR has a better shot. But thanks to steroids, livelier baseballs, and expansion, maybe 500 HR isn't as big of a deal anymore.
Thomas should make it though.
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Post by heartybooooo on Jan 7, 2010 8:34:58 GMT -5
Actually, if anything his time at first base should be viewed as a negative as it probably decreased his value as he was probably a worse defender than a replacement player.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 7, 2010 8:43:38 GMT -5
That's an interesting question though.
If you're punishing a DH for not playing the field, then how do you justify a shitty defender that probably should have been a DH?
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Post by jwmcc on Jan 7, 2010 11:31:35 GMT -5
Frank Thomas has a much stronger case than Edgar Martinez and not just because of his home runs. Thomas was a back to back MVP, and put up the same high average/high OBP numbers for a longer period than Martinez.
I also factor in that Thomas didn't have the lineup support that Edgar had in his prime(Griffey, A-Rod, Buhner).
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 7, 2010 14:28:39 GMT -5
For me, lineup support isn't a factor. Ultimately, you have to produce. I don't think too many HOFers would cease to be HOFers in a lineup without support. They may not have quite the same numbers, but they still would produce. That's why they ARE HOFers.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Jan 7, 2010 14:50:24 GMT -5
lineup support definitely is a factor......
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 7, 2010 16:21:35 GMT -5
What HOFer would not be in the HOF if he played on a team with less support?
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 7, 2010 17:44:48 GMT -5
Frank Thomas is at a much higher level than Edgar Martinez, the whole idea of comparing the two is asinine.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 7, 2010 18:16:55 GMT -5
He is, but despite Thomas' shit defense, Edgar is probably more of a pure DH, given that Edgar played only about 400 games in the field.
I think that hurt his case more.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Jan 7, 2010 23:58:43 GMT -5
What HOFer would not be in the HOF if he played on a team with less support? Frank Thomas.....
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 11, 2010 6:56:29 GMT -5
First, he's not in the HOF, and second, he played for several teams, and second, what amazing support did Thomas have? Hell, he only was on a playoff caliber team 3 times in his career, and never played in a World Series.
Thomas was in the playoffs at ages 25, 32, and 38. Who was his big support? Lance Johnson? Robin Ventura?
The teams Thomas played on were mediocre. He doesn't owe any HOF election to his teammates.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 11, 2010 11:58:56 GMT -5
Putting aside that I've been in Chicago the last two years, this is the first place I've ever seen where there is a sliver of doubt raised that Frank Thomas is a HOFer.
First ballot.
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 11, 2010 12:22:00 GMT -5
Agreed.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 11, 2010 12:38:07 GMT -5
It seems pretty obvious that Thomas should get in on the first ballot, but it was also obvious that Alomar was going to get in on the first ballot. The writers can be strange sometimes.
Short of a steroid connection, I don't see how anyone can NOT vote for the guy. He's not even borderline. That's why I don't see how "having support" behind him would have made a difference. I don't even think he had that great support behind him. He was on a bunch of teams that won 80 something games a year. Nothing spectacular, and he put up MVP numbers.
Other than steroids, the only thing that can hurt him on the first ballot is being a primary DH. But I'd be surprised.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 11, 2010 12:40:00 GMT -5
He's more than 521 HRs. He was a lifetime .300 hitter. He is easily the best hitter in White Sox history (we're not talking an expansion franchise), and, for those of you who indulge such silliness, he hasn't been indicted by Lord Canseco.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 11, 2010 12:46:31 GMT -5
His career suggests he probably didn't do roids either. It's not like he was one of those guys who got better in his late 30s. He had a comeback year at age 38 and an equally decent year at age 39, but that can happen if you're healthy for the first time in 3 years. By age 40, he was essentially done.
He was even relatively tough to strikeout, especially for a 500 HR guy. His lifetime OBP was over .400 too. OPS over .950.
I approve of his election to the HOF in 2013.
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Post by sean on Jan 11, 2010 16:14:13 GMT -5
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 12, 2010 8:27:16 GMT -5
Interesting article, but it does seem wrong that someone would be affected by someone else being on the ballot. If you're a HOFer, you're a HOFer. I also don't get the whole dramatic rise in votes either. You're either good enough or not.
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Post by jwmcc on Jan 12, 2010 8:39:43 GMT -5
"but it does seem wrong that someone would be affected by someone else being on the ballot"
I think that's only the case because you're only allowed to check off 10 names on the ballot itself. So in a certain year or two if there's five new players who are no-brainer picks, that leaves less room for anyone who would be considered borderline.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 12, 2010 9:23:51 GMT -5
I sort of get that, but that's still kind of weak. What if there are 15 first ballot HOFers on the ballot in the same year? I know it's unlikely, but the rule could actually knock someone off the ballot.
Of course, writers are stupid anyway. Logically, in a year where something like that occurs, you vote for the people with less years eligibility.
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