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Post by MSBNYY on Jun 24, 2008 10:20:09 GMT -5
I think no doubt that Schilling gets the edge over Mussina. The 3 20 win seasons alone give him that edge.
As for the HOF, he's no 1st balloter, but it wouldn't shock me to see him get there.
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Post by Chris on Jun 24, 2008 10:32:36 GMT -5
OK fine...but the criteria for Schilling getting into the Hall is not a head to head comparison with Mussina.
I don't think anyone in their right mind feels like Mussina is a HOF'er.
Schilling is not a HOF'er. I think it IS reasonable to immediately discount him as an HOF'er. He just doesn't have it...especially stacked up against other superior pitchers who haven't gotten in. OK he may have been perceived as somewhat of an upper echelon pitcher during stints in his career...any moreso than Jack Morris? Hell no.
As a matter of fact Orel Hershiser in a shorter injury plagued career put up equivalent numbers, had one post-season for the ages, was considered THEE dominant pitcher at some point....and HE isn't about to sniff the HALL.....so Schilling by all rights should BE OUT and STAY OUT!
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Post by 9 on Jun 24, 2008 11:07:36 GMT -5
Maybe he'll get voted in for his blog.
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Post by Chris on Jun 24, 2008 11:11:27 GMT -5
I think his blog will go a long way in enforcing the Jim Rice Factor.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jun 24, 2008 11:22:13 GMT -5
Jack Morris' career ERA was 3.90. That's just not that good. It's certainly not dominating. While I do think he merits HOF consideration, I don't think he's as good as Schilling. And despite that incredible 1991 WS, he was nowhere near as dominant overall as Schilling in the postseason.
Anal Hersheiser has just one 20 win season on his resume. He had a great run, and I think is much closer to Schilling than Morris, but Schilling did have a better career.
Some of the stats are close, but Schilling beats him everywhere down the baseball card. Schilling's WHIP is 1.137 compared to Hersheiser's 1.261. Schilling struck out 1100 more batters in about 110 more innings. Hersheiser walked 1007 compared to Schilling 's 711.
Not to mention three 20 win seasons where Anal Hersheiser has one.
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Post by Chris on Jun 24, 2008 11:38:23 GMT -5
HA! Believe me, no one is looking at WHIPS and total Ks (unless you have some phenomenal 3000+ numbers) and walks. Hall Of Fame voting does not get that granular.
They look at big picture stats: Wins, Batting Averages, Major Awards won, etc...
In that regard, Hershiser was every bit the pitcher Schilling was...not to mention Hershiser put up those numbers despite an injury plagued career whereas Schill was relatively healthy. And in that regard, Morris and Blyleven were much more effective (total wins).
You get very granular in your analysis Balls, and the fact is most baseball analysts don't....thus your determination that a pitcher who won 34 games in two seasons "SUCKS."
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Post by ajfreakz on Jun 24, 2008 13:12:45 GMT -5
anyone know the total ball players in the HOF ??
it to me just seems the current players trying to get in have a harder time getting in now than ever before ?? and i find that to be very odd when the last maybe 25-30 years we may have the best all around ball players ever
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Post by Jason Giambi on Jun 24, 2008 13:54:34 GMT -5
When I look at Schilling and Mussina, I don't think, damn, that's Gibson or Ryan..... therefore they don't belong.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jun 24, 2008 13:56:26 GMT -5
Schilling has 3116 Ks. Good for 13th on the all time list.
Wins are probably the least important stat out there. You can't win by yourself. You need offense. Sometimes a pitcher can have a high ERA and win because he has run support, and other times, they can pitch great and not get the support.
Over time, it should even out, but unless you are near 300 wins or greater, fuck wins.
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Post by ajfreakz on Jun 24, 2008 14:27:15 GMT -5
we have to remember the pitchers these days not by their own faults are babied.. so the 300 game winner is less likely now than ever before.. moose has up to this point 260 wins.. might have another 2 years left in him he could be close to a 300 game winner by that measure then
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Post by MSBNYY on Jun 24, 2008 15:48:17 GMT -5
If he can win 40 more games, they have to re-evaluate him.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jun 24, 2008 17:25:07 GMT -5
I disagree strongly. I dont think either guy is worth 50% of the Hall vote, yet enough of a percentage to get in. Hell, Mussina has not even won 20 games once in his career. Going into this year he was running a string of 17, 12, 13, 15, 11. This is the way I see the Hall. Its guys who, during their time, were considered the elite. Guys that people would feel want or need to talk about in 50 years. Mike Mussina? I mean, really.....what stories would you tell your grandkids about Mike fucking Mussina? Schilling at least has a rep, has some playoff moments to remember, but still. At least he has some awesome seasons to his notched belt too, Mussina doesnt. Come on guys, this chatter is a waste of time.
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Post by ajfreakz on Jun 24, 2008 18:29:22 GMT -5
ok well my grandparents didnt usually see their hero's play much since they didnt have much money and listened on the radio.. we see these guys every day every pitch its a diff world to be honest with you.. and the pitchers are pitching differently i mean shit little league kids have pitch counts...
tom what im basically saying is you are OLD.. haha
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Post by Jason Giambi on Jun 24, 2008 19:16:47 GMT -5
I disagree strongly. I dont think either guy is worth 50% of the Hall vote, yet enough of a percentage to get in. Hell, Mussina has not even won 20 games once in his career. Going into this year he was running a string of 17, 12, 13, 15, 11. This is the way I see the Hall. Its guys who, during their time, were considered the elite. Guys that people would feel want or need to talk about in 50 years. Mike Mussina? I mean, really.....what stories would you tell your grandkids about Mike fucking Mussina? Schilling at least has a rep, has some playoff moments to remember, but still. At least he has some awesome seasons to his notched belt too, Mussina doesnt. Come on guys, this chatter is a waste of time. that's what I say. I've seen schilling and mussina pitch, and wouldn't put them in the same sentence as gibson or ryan..... heck half the people in the hall shouldn't be there.
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Post by Chris on Jun 25, 2008 0:19:36 GMT -5
Bottom line is, they are compilers. LOTS of guys in this game have put up impressive stats by having adequate to pretty good seasons, remaining healthy, for 18 + seasons.
Schilling and Moose are CLEARLY compilers, never considered amongst the best of the best at their positions.
I'm with Tom...these guys aren't even worthy of arguing HOF status. They should be clear cut 1st Ballot BANNED FROM THE HALL OF FAMERS.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jun 25, 2008 5:58:48 GMT -5
In order to compile, you have to be GOOD enough to be in the majors long enough to compile. Jim Rice is a perfect example of that. He didn't compile because his skills left him at too young of an age TO compile.
I don't think ANYONE is arguing Mussina should be in the HOF. I'm not. Maybe if he manages another 40 wins, but what are the odds of that? If he retired today, no way.
But Schilling is on a different level. He was considered elite. He won 20 games not once, but three times. He will be remembered as a top level pitcher for what he did on the big stage. And of course, we can remember that the Yanks chose to get Denny Neagle instead of Schilling when they had the chance.
If you are consistent enough to put up HOF numbers, you are good enough to be in the HOF. There are quite a few compilers in the HOF.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jun 25, 2008 7:09:44 GMT -5
There are quite a few compilers in the HOF.
Yes, and they are better than Schilling.
Schilling won 20 games 3 times, yes, but in recent years he won 8 of 24 starts, 8 of 32 starts, and 9 of 24 starts. He also won as many as 17 games only one time in his career, outside of those 3 twenty win seasons.
Sorry, not good enough.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jun 25, 2008 11:23:32 GMT -5
I'm not saying you're arguments are invalid, but don't be surprised or shocked if he gets the nod. To me, he's borderline.
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Post by 9 on Jun 25, 2008 11:28:41 GMT -5
I just hope Justin Christian goes into Cooperstown as a Yankee.
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Post by ajfreakz on Jun 25, 2008 13:13:56 GMT -5
love to see how many players in their first fielding attempt recorded an error..
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 1, 2008 21:56:07 GMT -5
Three heroes to stand in Hall forever Clemente, Gehrig, Robinson honored with life-size statues
mlb.com
COOPERSTOWN, N.Y. -- The term "heroes" is thrown around all too often in the sports world, but it seems a particularly fitting description of the three legendary players honored at the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown on Saturday afternoon.
In a ceremony that played to a packed house in the Hall of Fame's main lobby, the museum dedicated life-size bronze statues of Hall of Famers Roberto Clemente, Lou Gehrig and Jackie Robinson as part of a celebration of "Character and Courage" in the game. After the ceremony, two of Clemente's sons and noted baseball author Jonathan Eig participated in a special "Voices of the Game" program in the Hall's Grandstand Theater.
Clemente's widow, Vera, and Robinson's widow, Rachel, both spoke briefly at the 25-minute dedication ceremony, which began at 1 p.m. ET in the museum's main lobby. Red Sox right-hander Curt Schilling, a longtime fan of Gehrig and an active contributor to ALS-related causes, spoke on behalf of the Yankee legend known as "The Iron Horse."
"The Hall of Fame is like my family," said an emotional Vera Clemente, who visited the museum in 2000 to participate in a rededication of her husband's Hall of Fame plaque. "We are so honored to be here."
"I'm embarrassed to be standing here, really," said Schilling, who has long regarded Gehrig and Clemente as personal idols. "These three men accomplished so much."
A crowd of approximately 150 to 200 fans crowded into the lobby to watch the ribbon-cutting, which was hosted by Hall of Fame president Jeff Idelson. Mrs. Clemente and Mrs. Robinson both signed autographs after the ceremony, but Schilling, who was scheduled to participate in the Voices panel afterward, left the Hall of Fame early to attend his son's football game.
About a half-hour after the ceremony ended, approximately 140 fans gathered in the Grandstand Theater to watch a panel discussion of the contributions of Clemente, Gehrig, and Robinson.
"It was not just on the field that they left their footprints. It was outside the lines that they showed their character," said Roberto Clemente, Jr., the eldest son of the Hall of Fame outfielder who perished in a 1972 plane crash while airlifting relief supplies to earthquake-torn Nicaragua.
"What's the meaning of these three beautiful statues? It's great when you get to know the stories of all three gentlemen," emphasized the younger Clemente. "People will learn something about character and courage. These are three human beings we should all look up to."
Eig, who has written highly acclaimed biographies of both Gehrig and Robinson, felt that another key attribute drove all three men.
"Before courage and character came ambition," said Eig. "All three men were born into poverty. Gehrig was the son of German immigrants. Clemente was the son of farm workers [who worked on a sugar cane plantation]. Robinson grew up in Georgia, the son of a sharecropper. They each had an ambition to overcome economic problems and support their families."
As a player who performed in an earlier era than Clemente or Robinson, Gehrig stood out as unique among his Major League contemporaries -- and not just for his ability to play in 2,130 consecutive games.
"It was not just on the field that they left their footprints. It was outside the lines that they showed their character." -- Roberto Clemente Jr.
"First, he was freakishly shy. In the meantime, Babe Ruth and the Yankees were having more fun than was legally allowed," said Eig, referring to the era of Prohibition. "It takes courage to be different. Then to have the courage to tell the world what he was suffering from, and that he was dying. That was very unusual for someone to do at that time."
While Gehrig played in the 1920s and '30s, Clemente and Robinson shared common ground in trying to overcome the kind of racism that pervaded the country throughout the '40s, '50s, and '60s. The pioneering Robinson became the first African-American Major Leaguer of the 20th century, and Clemente emerged as the first Latin American superstar and succeeded in bucking the racist stereotypes imposed against Latino ballplayers. Both men died in 1972, both at young ages. Clemente was 38. Robinson, the victim of a diabetes-related heart attack, was 53.
According to Clemente's middle son, Luis, the two men had other things in common, as well.
"There are many similarities between Jackie and my father," explained Luis, who helps his mother Vera operate the Roberto Clemente Sports City in Puerto Rico. "They both came up with the Brooklyn Dodgers [organization]. They both inspired a lot of people. I've come to know the Robinson family. Sharon Robinson, Jackie's daughter, sits on the board of directors for Sports City."
Clemente's Sports City, which was started shortly after the senior Clemente's death, has given underprivileged Puerto Rican youngsters an opportunity to participate in athletics, including baseball, basketball and volleyball, free of charge. At the same time, Gehrig has become synonymous with the fight to wipe out the disease that both claimed his life at the age of 37 and now bears his name.
"Gehrig's name has helped ALS foundations incredibly in raising money for the cause," says Eig. "It attaches a name, a face, to this disease."
Fans who visit the Hall of Fame will now have additional reminders that attach Gehrig, Robinson and Clemente to the notion of heroism. As fans first enter the museum, they'll immediately notice the bronze statues of the three baseball legends -- Gehrig on the left, Robinson in the center, and Clemente on the right. In the background, they'll also notice black-and-white photographs of each man, each instructing a young fan about the game -- and perhaps passing along those eternal attributes of character and courage.
Hall of Fame news and notes: The "Character and Courage" statues were created by renowned sculptor Stanley Bleifeld, who previously sculpted Hall of Fame statues honoring the Brooklyn Dodgers and the old All-American Girls Professional Baseball League. A monetary donation by lifelong baseball fan and longtime Hall of Fame supporter Bob Crotty made the dedication of the three statues possible. ... After the Voices of the Game program, Jonathan Eig signed copies of his Gehrig and Robinson books in the atrium of the Hall of Fame Library.
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Post by $heriff Tom on Dec 24, 2008 16:38:10 GMT -5
Announcement of this years class coming - and being broadcast live - on MLB Network, on January 12th. Jim Rice, who was only 16 votes shy last time around, is the one to watch. I think he should be in. And put in Bert Blyleven already, he deserves it too.
Rice hopes final try equals immortality Will Sox slugger be worthy of Hall in last regular attempt?
Down to his 15th and final at-bat for election into the Baseball Hall of Fame, Jim Rice hopes the vote will at last swing him right into Cooperstown, N.Y.
A year ago, Rice, the slugger who played his entire career (1974-89) with the Boston Red Sox, came agonizingly close to gaining enshrinement. A player needs to be named on 75 percent of the ballots by the Baseball Writers' Association of America.
By being named on 392 ballots, Rice finished at 72.2 percent, leaving him 16 votes shy.
2009 candidates
• Harold Baines • Jay Bell • Bert Blyleven • David Cone • Andre Dawson • Ron Gant • Mark Grace • Rickey Henderson • Tommy John • Don Mattingly • Mark McGwire • Jack Morris • Dale Murphy • Jesse Orosco • Dave Parker • Dan Plesac • Tim Raines • Jim Rice • Lee Smith • Alan Trammell • Greg Vaughn • Mo Vaughn • Matt Williams If history is any indication, Rice could well make up the difference this time. No player has ever received as high a percentage as Rice did last year without eventually becoming a Hall of Famer.
The wrinkle with Rice, however, is that this is the last year that he is eligible to make it to the Hall of Fame by traditional means.
Should the right-handed-hitting masher fall short again, Rice's only possible entry going forward would be the Veterans Committee ballot.
"I believe my accomplishments speak for themselves, and a majority of the voters seem to agree," Rice said after falling short last January. "It is tough to come this close, but I remain hopeful for the 2009 results."
The top new candidate on this year's ballot is Rickey Henderson, whose career spanned 25 years and nine teams, including the Red Sox in 2002. Henderson, who has never announced his retirement, last played for the Dodgers in 2003. The 1990 AL MVP is the all-time leader in runs scored (2,295), stolen bases (1,406) and is second in walks (2,190).
Live coverage of the Hall of Fame's announcement on Jan. 12 can be seen on MLB Network.
In addition to Rice, the strongest incumbent candidates are Andrew Dawson (65.9 percent last year) and former Twins ace Bert Blyleven (61.9 percent). Though Dawson is best known for his production with the Expos and Cubs, he played for the Red Sox in 1993-94.
The Red Sox of the 1970s and '80s were loaded with star hitters. If it wasn't Carl Yastrzemski, it was Carlton Fisk. If it wasn't Dwight Evans, it was Fred Lynn. If it wasn't Wade Boggs, it was Tony Armas. But during that time period, no Red Sox hitter gave opposing pitchers a more sickening feeling than Rice.
Dick Bresciani, who is the de facto historian for the Red Sox among his other duties with the club, releases an annual report to Hall of Fame voters on why Rice is worthy of Cooperstown.
As Bresciani notes, Rice's 382 homers and 1,451 RBIs were tops among all American League hitters during his 16 years. Furthermore, Rice topped 20 homers 11 times, 100 RBIs eight times, was an All-Star eight times, hit .300 in seven seasons and he finished in the top five in the AL MVP voting six times. Also, Rice hit 39-plus homers four times, the most of anyone who played during his time period.
Rice, who hit for average and power, and to all fields, was a dominant slugger. Clearly, the thing that has held Rice back thus far in his quest for Cooperstown is the longevity stats. The home runs are just shy of 400. The hits (2,452) are a few seasons short of 3,000. And, oh, the batting average. If only Rice hadn't taken a free fall in his final three seasons, that .298 career average would have been well over .300.
But what means more? Longevity or dominance?
When Rice was at his best -- from 1975-86 -- he mashed the opposition with pure strength and hitting technique.
During those golden years, Rice led all AL players in games, at-bats, runs, hits, homers, RBIs, slugging percentage, total bases, extra-base hits, go-ahead RBIs, multihit games and outfield assists.
"I know what Jimmy meant to our team, and I know the kind of player that he was," said former Red Sox left-hander Bruce Hurst. "Jimmy was a great threat, an incredible hitter. He made a lot of people around him better because a lot of people didn't want to pitch to Jimmy. A lot of guys didn't pitch to Jimmy. I just think that Jimmy's a Hall of Famer."
Check out some of Rice's other appearances on the top 10 list: hits (eight times), total bases (nine times, including four firsts), home runs (seven, including three home run titles), RBIs (nine times, two firsts) and extra-base hits (six).
In other words, during his peak years, Rice was a consistent force to be reckoned with. Consider some of the players that baseballreference.com compares to Rice from a statistical standpoint: Orlando Cepeda, Duke Snider, Billy Williams and Willie Stargell. Those four men are all Hall of Famers.
"Look at the numbers: he was awesome," said Bob Stanley, the all-time saves leader for the Red Sox. "And it wasn't just the Green Monster. He hit a lot of his home runs to center field and right field."
Anyone who wants to know just what Rice was when he was at his absolute best need look no further than 1978, the year he played in all 163 games (including a one-game playoff) and won his lone AL MVP Award. During that season, he became the only man to lead either league in triples (15), homers (46) and RBIs (139) in the same season. His 406 total bases were the most by an AL player since Joe DiMaggio in 1937.
"Jimmy is a very, very talented player, probably one of the most special offensive players we had in Boston for a long time," said former Sox catcher Rich Gedman, who called Rice a teammate for a decade. "Hopefully, in time, he can persevere and get there. The problem is, he just needed a little bit more longevity, I would think. In terms of being a special player, he was very, very good and certainly Hall of Fame caliber. The thing with Jim Rice, for the time he played, he played as well as anybody."
Red Sox Nation hopes that Rice's dominance during his era will finally land him with the highest honor a baseball player can receive.
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 24, 2008 17:17:24 GMT -5
Rice doesn't deserve it. He didn't play long enough.
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Post by Chris on Dec 28, 2008 0:22:54 GMT -5
Since the other thread got hijacked...I'll post my response to it here, in the appropriate place.
Jamie Moyer (assuming he ever got to 300 wins, which is a longshot at best) - No Way
Tommy John - No Way
Bert Blyleven - Nah (which is not as emphatic as No Way, but no nonetheless)
Jim Rice - probably deserves it more than those others who are seen as being on the proverbial bubble, but I would hardly call it a travesty if he never gets in.
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Post by Chris on Dec 28, 2008 0:32:15 GMT -5
Looking at the list posted:
The Yankee fan in me and the Kirby Puckett arguments makes me hope Mattingly still has a shot, but he doesn't.
Stats aside, to me Andre Dawson will always jump out as a reasonable choice for the Hall.
Lee Smith SHOULD get in.
Ricky is a lock. No one has ever gotten 100%. I think anyone who didn't vote for Ricky would be doing so only to ensure that he doesn't get 100%, which is a stupid reason.
Ron Gant and Jesse Orosco being on the list, even of remote considerables, jumps out as a joke.
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 28, 2008 9:06:38 GMT -5
Rickey is the only one right now that is a no brainer.
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 7, 2009 14:11:37 GMT -5
A good piece explaining why Blyleven should be in the Hall. And I bolded up the spot that talks about how the Ks are what the pitcher can control that has come up on here a few times. Strikeouts help separate Blyleven Pitcher dominated over 22-year Major League careerThrough 11 years of discussion, plenty of people have poked plenty of holes -- or attempted to, at least -- in Bert Blyleven's case for the Hall of Fame. Some may be legitimate, some less so. One, however, is just laughable: the notion that Blyleven was never THAT good, or more specifically that he wasn't dominant. He simply is the most dominant pitcher to be put up for election who has not yet made the Hall.
The strikeouts say so. And when it comes to dominance, nothing tells the story like strikeouts. Blyleven racked up 3,701 of them in a 22-year career. He was in the top 10 in his league in strikeouts 15 times, and 14 times he ranked in the top 10 in Ks per nine innings. Blyleven's standing in the Hall vote is going up from year to year, and part of that comes from voters looking at those numbers more closely.
In his classic "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame," Bill James noted an intriguing trend that should continue to benefit Blyleven. The more years go by, the more a player's Hall of Fame case rests purely on his numbers, rather than perceptions. In year one, it's about how writers remember the player. A decade down the line, it's much more about the performance. That's benefiting Blyleven.
"It's a nice positive in what I feel is a negative situation," Blyleven told MLB.com in 2008. "Because I still feel my numbers are Hall of Fame numbers."
The raw numbers are striking. Blyleven ranks fifth all-time in strikeouts, trailing only Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens and Steve Carlton -- all regarded as having compiled Hall of Fame-caliber credentials, despite some dissenting voices on Ryan.
The next nine pitchers on the list all either are already in or shoo-ins to gain enshrinement: Tom Seaver, Don Sutton, Gaylord Perry, Walter Johnson, Greg Maddux, Phil Niekro, Ferguson Jenkins, Bob Gibson and Pedro Martinez.
You have to go all the way to No. 14, Curt Schilling, before you find a pitcher who is not in Cooperstown or a lock to get there. And Schilling's chances are pretty good.
But let's put it in another light. Records fall. All-time lists change. Mark McGwire has fallen from fifth to eighth on the home-run list just in the seven years since he retired. This is a homers-and-strikeouts era.
Yet there's virtually no chance of anyone passing Blyleven within the next ... decade?
With Maddux's retirement, the nearest active pitcher is Schilling, 585 strikeouts behind Blyleven. His health makes it difficult to envision Schilling making up that gap. Ditto for John Smoltz, and Mike Mussina has retired. Tom Glavine would need nearly 1,100 more. Jamie Moyer needs 1,453 more. Javier Vazquez is next at just over 2,000.
The next pitcher with any sort of viable shot at getting up into the top five is Johan Santana, currently sitting at 1,587 -- more than 2,000 behind. Ten years from now, the saves list will look a lot different. The homers list also will look a lot different. Blyleven, though, almost certainly still will be fifth in strikeouts -- and possibly first among non-Hall-of-Fame hurlers.
Yet there's nothing a pitcher controls more than strikeouts. It's one of three facets of pitching that's virtually independent of a hurler's teammates. Strikeouts, walks and home runs are about it. Everything else, from hits to runs to groundouts to wins and losses, requires a contribution, or lack thereof, from the other guys on the field.
Blyleven's case features plenty of other fine points: the wins, the complete games and shutouts, the ERA, even significant contributions to two World Series champions. But it's the Ks that were in his hands, and it's the Ks that show just how overwhelming he could be.
Voros McCracken's 2001 article on the concept of "DIPS," or defense-independent pitching statistics, pointed to the lack of control pitchers have on balls in play. The concept was a bombshell when it was introduced, but it has become more and more accepted. We have come to a better understanding in recent years of the importance of strikeouts for a pitcher.
So although it's a small intersection between devotees of hardcore number-crunching and 10-year members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America, the overlap is growing. And surely at least a few of the voters who have come around on Blyleven between 2000 (when he received 17.4 percent of the vote) and 2008 (61.9 percent) did so with a nudge from McCracken's work.
It's ironic that Blyleven, truly an old-school type known for practical jokes and an absence of political correctness, might benefit from one of the greatest advances in sabermetric thinking. But if he gets in, he'll likely have a statistical analyst to thank for at least a few of his votes.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 7, 2009 14:16:54 GMT -5
Chris made the same point, but again, if you have 2 pitchers, both pitch 7 innings and give up 3 runs, it doesn't matter how many strikeouts there were.
Or let's take a pitcher 1, who pitches 7 innings, strikes out no one, but gives up no runs. Pitcher 2, pitches 7 innings, strikes out 15, gives up 2 runs.
Pitcher 1 outpitched him.
Did Blyleven have a better career than John? Definitely arguable. A matter of preference. But is one a HOFer while the other isn't? No way.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 8, 2009 14:06:17 GMT -5
Fun blog about a writer who has a ballot, and it does not include Rickey Henderson (although it DOES have Tim Raines) homerderby.com/archives/2247
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Post by 9 on Jan 8, 2009 14:10:53 GMT -5
This is why I hate the Hall of Fame voters. I can't stand Henderson because he was a total douche when he played for the Yankees, but he is, without a doubt, a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Anyone not voting for him should have their credentials stripped. And be beaten.
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