MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 8, 2009 15:39:37 GMT -5
No one has ever got 100 percent of the vote. That means there are people who didn't vote for guys like Mantle, DiMaggio, Mays, Ryan, etc.
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Post by Chris on Jan 8, 2009 16:44:36 GMT -5
Exactly Nettles.
People won't vote for him solely for the purpose of not allowing him to have 100%. That's asinine.
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Post by 9 on Jan 8, 2009 18:08:48 GMT -5
The entire thing is stupid. These asshole sportswriters let petty beefs and stupid shit like "no one should get 100%" get in the way of logic.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 9, 2009 14:43:46 GMT -5
So is this the year in his last on the ballot that Jim Rice deservedly gets in? ?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 9, 2009 14:44:46 GMT -5
Possibly, though he doesn't deserve it.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 9, 2009 14:53:20 GMT -5
I'm not arguing with you again on this Balls but for a decade of my childhood he was the most feared hitter in baseball.....
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 9, 2009 14:56:37 GMT -5
True, but that wasn't a long enough time. He didn't last long enough in the majors to be considered one of the best of all time. Very good prime, but not long enough for the HOF. Stopped being productive at 33. Out of baseball at 36.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 9, 2009 14:57:39 GMT -5
To me a decade of dominance is enough now 4 or 5 like Mattingly is not......
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 9, 2009 15:38:41 GMT -5
I would agree with you on Mattingly, if they didn't elect a guy who had the exact same numbers at the plate. In fact, Puckett lowered the bar to the point where even a guy like Rice, who while very good, is not a HOFer, should get in.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 9, 2009 15:47:27 GMT -5
Im all for Rice getting in, but if he doesnt I wont be hollering travesty, as I am with Blyleven.
Blyleven is skewing higher than Rice right now.
Again, as many have said, he was the most feared hitter for a while. Like a decade. I hope he gets it, the pain in the ass he was.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 9, 2009 15:49:31 GMT -5
Rice > Mattingly cause he did it for doubly as long......
Blyleven should be in to....
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 9, 2009 15:52:53 GMT -5
I don't think Rice v. Mattingly is relevant since Mattingly isn't in the Hall. If you would say Rice > Puckett, that would be a fair argument for putting Rice in the HOF, under the 2 wrongs make a right theory (or consistent voting). Mattingly=Puckett is the basis for the whole Mattingly case.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 9, 2009 15:56:23 GMT -5
Puckett was a CF, Rice was a corner OF.
Sorry, but you judge guys against your peers, which is why Puckett and Mattingly should not be compared. Mattingly played first, and he just does not stack with the 1Bs in the Hall as a gearmark.
What, should Mattingly be in cause his stats top Ozzie Smiths?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 9, 2009 16:48:21 GMT -5
We're talking about hitting, not defense. And Mattingly would not be the worst HOFer at 1B.
And Ozzie Smith in the HOF is also a bad call. Great fielder, but he was not a good enough hitter. Of course, Mattingly, like Smith, was one of the best defensive players in the history of his position. The only knock on Mattingly, for people like you, is that he was a Yankee.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 9, 2009 20:03:03 GMT -5
Of course, Mattingly, like Smith, was one of the best defensive players in the history of his position.
LOL!
Talk about pinstriped blinders!
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 9, 2009 22:15:14 GMT -5
It's not pinstripe blinders. Defensively, the stats prove this. He ties Garvey for the highest lifetime percentage ever.
You may hate the Yankees, but sometimes numbers prove you wrong.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 12, 2009 14:05:57 GMT -5
Looks like the Red Sox fans got their wish, and another undeserved player makes the cut. The campaigning worked as the bar is lowered once again. Way to go Rice.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 12, 2009 14:17:29 GMT -5
Congrats to Jim Rice, well deserved.
Possibly the most feared hitter in the game during my childhood.
He had my vote. I'll have a proper tribute heading to he and Rickey Henderson here in the Batter Up section later this evening.
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Post by cactusjames on Jan 12, 2009 17:29:38 GMT -5
I'm 22 and I know Rice was good. Good call by the Hall.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 12, 2009 18:12:53 GMT -5
No one is saying Rice wasn't good.
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Post by Chris on Jan 13, 2009 13:22:29 GMT -5
McGwire got 21.9%. Did he go up or down from last year?
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 13, 2009 13:33:21 GMT -5
Down.
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Post by Chris on Jan 13, 2009 13:36:19 GMT -5
Bitchin!
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Post by 9 on Jan 13, 2009 14:23:37 GMT -5
Now, now, remember: He's NOT here to talk about the past.
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Post by Chris on Jan 14, 2009 13:04:17 GMT -5
Very good Hall Of Fame induction show on the MLB Network. I had recorded it, so I just watched last night.
Some very good points made.
John Heyman and I are of the same opinion that Blyleven is a compiler, not a HOF'er. Only won more than 17 games once and very high career ERA, was never amongst thee dominant pitchers in the game. His saving grace might be his shutout totals.
Jack Morris deserves it more than Blyleven, and he's questionable. Similar ERA, was very dominant for a time.
Andre Dawson should be in. Voting has become jaded since the steroid era. Dawson is in an elite stolen bases/HR club (400/300) with Bonds and Mays, was one of the most feared hitters in the game, outstanding glove, 2700 hits...and back to the jaded stats point - 438 Home Runs is a hell of a lot of unaided long flies!
Robbie Alomar should be a first ballot HOFer.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 14, 2009 13:06:59 GMT -5
LOL @ Jack Morris deserving it more than Blyleven!
LOL!
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Post by Chris on Jan 14, 2009 13:10:53 GMT -5
And Tom Verducci made an outstanding point about steroids.
The writers crucified baseball ownership for knowing about the seriousness of the steroids plague for years and not doing anything about it.
It would be extremely hypocritical for the baseball writers to NOT acknowledge and act upon what amounts to a massive amount of physical and anecdotal evidence of doping. Baseball writers must do what they have chastised ownership for not doing - provide strong negative reinforcement for doping.
I really think the Heckle House needs a Hall Of Fame vote. From what I can see, whether it be via scorecard scribblings, journal entries, and website message board diatribes, our own Tom Brown far exceeds the criteria for voting eligibility by writing about baseball for 10 consecutive years. I say a petition is in order.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 14, 2009 13:16:30 GMT -5
Dawson's an interesting case. With the exception of 1987, there was never really a point where he was the best in the game at anything. But while he didn't often lead the league in any major category, (1987 being the exception), he was consistent. I wouldn't call him a compiler, because he was still fairly productive up until about 1993. You could argue 1994-96 were compiling years, but he really didn't compile all that much at that point.
Multiple Gold Gloves in an era before Palmeiro ruined the award. Multiple Silver Sluggers. Excellent base stealer in the first half of his career.
2700 hits, 400 HR, 1500 RBI.
Borderline to me, but on the side of the border that I would vote for.
Alomar is hurt a little by the steroid stuff. But I think he's a no brainer for the HOF.
Morris' ERA was way too high. I think those that remember him will remember him as one of the better pitchers of the era, but I think he falls a little short of the HOF. I wouldn't be all that pissed if he made it though. That ERA sticks out though. It's like a .250 hitter getting in the HOF.
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Post by Chris on Jan 14, 2009 13:17:11 GMT -5
"LOL @ Jack Morris deserving it more than Blyleven!"
Same ERA. Only 30 fewer wins in 4 fewer years and about 160 fewer starts 3 x 20 game winner 6 x won more than 17 games (as opposed to Blyleven's 1) Top 5 Cy young voting five times (as opposed to Blyleven's 3) 6 -1 in the post-season 5 x All Star (as opposed to Blyleven's 2) higher winning % than Blyleven
Come on Tom, Blyleven is a compiler. Don't act like the statement I made is out of this world. Morris achieved more impressive season-by-season numbers, and in some cases nearly equivalent career numbers, in 4 fewer season and much fewer starts. And in comparison to their own era, Morris was much more dominant.
It's arguable, but it's certainly not a slam dunk in favor of Blyleven as you seem to be suggesting.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 14, 2009 13:23:30 GMT -5
Its not totally out of hand, as a matter of fact if i had a Hall of Fame vote, Morris would be on my ballot. That said, Blyleven was better. One thing pitchers can control is strikeouts, we went over this before, Blyleven was a master.
He played on some worse teams than Morris, dont give me this win garbage.
There is a reason Blyleven has a lot more support than Morris out there. So dont give ME this Morris is a slam-dunk better stuff, Cho.
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