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Post by grover on Mar 16, 2007 13:15:40 GMT -5
Actually, Bonds did put up HOF numbers, and that's a huge beef that most people have, and most critics and voters would have put him in the Hall if he never took roids.
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Post by kingdzbws on Mar 16, 2007 13:18:11 GMT -5
Let me ask a question here;
Did Rose admit on betting on OTHER sports during his career as a player?
Is it alleged that Rose developed his gambling addiction only AFTER his playing days were done?
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 16, 2007 14:18:29 GMT -5
I don't know the details. But from what I've seen, it's never been alleged that he gambled as a player.
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Post by Chris on Mar 16, 2007 16:25:41 GMT -5
The original Dowd Report alleged that he bet in 1985 - at the time he was a player/manager.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 16, 2007 17:01:26 GMT -5
Grover-- Bonds cheated to enhance his performance. His stats were altered because of his steroids. Even if Rose bet from day one, you can't make your numbers better by betting on yourself.
Rose did not bet until he was a manager. Even going with the player/manager betting, the punishment should be based on what he did. HOF ineligibility is not a fitting punishment.
4256 hits. Period.
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Post by grover on Mar 16, 2007 17:35:48 GMT -5
Well, if he was betting as a player/manager, then he gets what he deserves. They are not bending or warping the rules to keep him out. He broke the cardinal sin, and he is going to pay for it.
Just because you break a record doesn't mean you belong in. I don't see how it's ok to honor one cheater and not another, when the one who you want honored has a stronger case against him for cheating than the one you want to stay out.
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Post by kingdzbws on Mar 16, 2007 19:09:39 GMT -5
Marc, I just downloaded the dowd report which is convieniently available online in pdf format, at – dowdreport.com. Its fucking LONG.
Anyway, while there is NO PROOF that Rose bet on the Reds as a player, there are plenty of allegations and inferences that he did. This Tommy Gioisa (an all-around shady coke dealing character) dude that MOVED IN with Rose in 79 after his divorce was the one eventually fingered as Rose’s bet runner in 84-85-86 when he was player/manager. BUT NO PROOF OF PRE-84 gambling.
Also, by 85 - still as player/manager, Rose was betting $2,000 A GAME on BASEBALL and up to $5000 per game for football and basketball while he was player/manager. The evidence of this is pretty damning and the implications of his association with Tommy Gio– that Gio was dealing Coke while living with Rose -- are even worse.
I’m not done reading this thing, but it doesn’t look good for Charlie Hustle. The reality is that you don’t begin a gambling problem by dropping 2G per game(he only made 360G's with the Reds that year,) and you don’t just fall into debt for 88G’s without having a well-developed problem. That would be like starting a coke habit at $1000 a day (while working at McDonalds) – it don’t work like that, you gotta build to it.
So, the question to you, Balls, is; Do you think that baseball rule 21(d) about permanent ineligibility for caught gamblers is wrong? And Do you think that baseball's drug policy, which calls for a 3rd Strike permanent ineligibility on caught steroid users is right?
M
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 16, 2007 21:38:13 GMT -5
Compared to drug use, steroids, and all other crimes players have been given 1800 chances for, Rose gambling is simply not as big of a deal. Compared to Bonds actually altering his body to make him into a fake HOFer, Rose has been punished enough.
Grover--just like not every crime gets the exact same punishment, you can't compare what Rose did to what Bonds did. Bonds directly changed what he did on the field for his own individual stats.
His punishment should be his stats wiped from the record books and no entry to the HOF.
Rose bet on baseball from a position where he had power. He should never be allowed to manage again or even be employed.
Different crimes, different punishments.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 16, 2007 22:29:50 GMT -5
Different crimes, different punishments
Eh....Bonds has not been charged with anything.
Rose has admitted to wrongdoing.
What Rose did is punishable by banishment from the game.
What Bonds is purported to have done (but has never been proven to have done) is punishable by suspensions. Get over it. I am beginning to wonder if racism is involved here.
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Post by grover on Mar 16, 2007 22:41:31 GMT -5
Balls, try to make sense in a baseball argument for once.
And if Bonds should be wiped from the sport because of what he did, so should everyone else who's done something to enhance their game, and increase their stats.
Which just so happens to be the majority of everyone playing now or who has ever played.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 16, 2007 23:27:30 GMT -5
Grover, try to understand a baseball argument for once.
Everyone does it is no excuse. Not everyone in baseball history used steroids.
Not everyone pumped their veins full of juice to turn themselves into Bane.
Barry Bonds did. FUCK BARRY BONDS.
Pete Rose legitimately got 4256 hits. He belongs in the HOF.
Bonds did nothing legit in the game. When it comes down to it, Bonds' legacy will be that of a cheater.
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Post by grover on Mar 17, 2007 1:00:40 GMT -5
Sure. But not everyone popped Greenies, and not everyone cut a baseball to get a better spin, or go steal sings by using a pair of binoculars by the outfield wall. The point is, if we wipe out someone from the game for cheating, then we have to do that for everyone who cheated.
I'm not saying that bonds should be applauded, I'm just saying you can't erase him from the game. You can, however, keep him out the Hall. He deserves it, just like Rose, and just like McGwire, and Palmeiro, and Sosa, and Cansucko....
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Post by Chris on Mar 17, 2007 1:27:46 GMT -5
Here's the thing, in my mind, that marks the difference between Rose and Bonds. And before I say this, let preface again that this is my own personal opinion, but I happen to think it's common logic. Like Tom said, Bonds has been caught, and I mean OFFICIALLY CAUGHT, of absolutely no wrong-doing. Rose has admitted to his wrong-doings.
But the difference here is that what Bonds ALLEGEDLY did was in an effort to improve his play on the field, which logic would dictate that his team would benefit from. What Rose has admitted to doing has slippery-slope type implications that he may have purposely compromised his team's ability to perform to their highest potential on the field....even if he bet ON the Reds. Bonds being all hopped up on roids and hitting a shitload of homeruns and getting walked 34856734897638957348957 times per season can only help and never hurt his team's cause on the field. Rose may have made managerial moves that he otherwise wouldn't have to cover his bets, whether it be that night's bet or even worse preparing the team to better cover tomorrow night's bet at the risk sacrificing tonight's game or other future games.
And actually, the more you think about what Rose did, the possibilities become mind-boggling. Rose's actions may have trickled down throughout the league and possibly tarnished the validity of other team's records that Rose had faced as a manager throughout the years...perhaps even eventual World Series champions may have earned their playoff spots thanks to potentially bogus victories over Rose's teams.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 17, 2007 8:54:49 GMT -5
Don't give me the officially caught crap. The man is on the juice. He's probably going to be indicted for it. All the physical evidence is in his appearance. Do you realize how stupid you have to be to not believe he was on steroids?
Bonds was only trying to improve his play on the field? Do you really swallow that load of shit? Hell, people close to the situation have said that he just didn't like McGwire getting the record, so he juiced up hard. But even if his motive was to improve his team, he fucking cheated. His entire career is a sham.
As for Rose, he NEVER bet against the Reds. Again, not alleged. Not that betting ON your team can't affect the outcome, but I wouldn't call Reds losses malarky. But again, it doesn't matter. Not letting him in the HOF for what he did as a manager is not the right punishment. He should never be allowed to manage again. He should never be allowed to do anything that could affect the outcome of any game again. But he should be in the HOF.
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 17, 2007 18:08:31 GMT -5
But not everyone popped Greenies,
Mickey Mantle did. Its well documented. Hell, he needed them to recover from drinking till 5AM the morning of an afternoon game.
Lets throw him out of the Hall!
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Post by grover on Mar 17, 2007 21:10:41 GMT -5
Balls, I'm not saying Bonds is NOT on roids, because I can tell he is by looking at him.
Yet, that won't hold up in court would it? Unless there is some solid evidence of it that can be used in court, then you can say "Anyone who looks at him can know he's on juice" in the same manner where we can go "Anyone who knows about gambling knows Rose probably bet as a player" because anyone that knows anything about gambling and it's addiction knows that it doesn't happen overnight, just like anyone with a brain and eyes can look at bonds and know he's on juice.
And I'm only disagreeing with your choice of wiped record books. Once you do that, then you have to start stripping pennants and World Series titles. And once you punish one person for performance enhancing drugs, you have to start splitting hairs. If you wipe one guy for roids you have to wipe everyone, and if you do that then what about pennants and titles won with players who were on roids? They may of may not have won it without them. What do we do then? "In 1988 the Dodgers beat 'someone' to win the World Series."
It's a witch hunt, really. A guy in the NFL gets caught, gets 4 games on the bench, and nothing happens. No one cares if an NFL player is on juice but if there is an allegation against a baseball player it's the end of the world. I'm tired of it.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 18, 2007 0:55:07 GMT -5
Actually, physical evidence does hold up in court. He hasn't been indicted yet, but it's going in that direction. But baseball is NOT a court. That's a common mistake.
Baseball is not bound by standards used in courts. Perfect example was the Black Sox, who were found not guilty in court, and banned for life from baseball.
Selig could go after Bonds. He's too much of a pussy.
As for the record books, it's not perfect. It takes more than one player to win a Series or a pennant. You can't strip teams because obviously, that's not practical.
But you CAN strip individuals. You CAN wipe out their stats and a punishment for cheating. It would be very easy. Guys like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds & Palmeiro did not earn the records they achieved. They shouldn't be acknowledged.
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Post by grover on Mar 18, 2007 16:09:57 GMT -5
It takes more than one person to win a Pennant but I tell you this the A's on the late 80's probably wouldn't have done what they did without McGwire and Canseco.
Your idea of stripping stats is, well, silly. What happens when it comes out that 5 or more players on on roids on a winning team? When someone looks at the stats of that World Series they see a 5 man line up?
And I'm sorry, you just can't do that. Balls, Mickey Mantle was on amphetamines to enhance his performance. Are you prepared to toss Mickey Mantle's legacy out of the game and wipe his stats from the record books? If your answer is no, well, then you're full of shit.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 18, 2007 16:22:31 GMT -5
We're hitting the point where you come up with examples that have nothing to do with steroids and are completely different.
Aphetamines do not enhance your performance. If anything, drugs like that hurt your performance.
But either way, you can't possibly compare any drug, alcohol, or anything to steroids.
Stripping stats is not silly. Again, we are not talking about stripping teams of titles and ignoring games.
Boxscores are not affected. Just basically the baseball card. It's not that hard.
Barry Bonds did not hit over 700 HR on his own. His entire career is a complete sham, and should be treated that way. No acknowledgement, no HOF, nothing.
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Post by grover on Mar 18, 2007 16:28:24 GMT -5
Ok, so let me get this straight:
Mantle takes amphetamines, which helps him do things he would not have been able to do if he didn't take them and it's ok.
Bonds takes Roids which helps him do things he would not have been able to do if he didn't take them and it's not ok.
I see. Well, Justin was spot on again a few posts ago.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 18, 2007 17:00:36 GMT -5
No. You don't get it. They aren't the same thing.
For one thing, drugs HURT their careers. Mantle SHORTENED his career with all the off field crap.
Steroids lengthened Bonds' career and gave him records he did not achieve.
You only would have hypocrisy if I were arguing that McGwire should be treated differently. Or another juicer.
Ridiculous is arguing that Rose's gambling is worse than Bonds' steroids.
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Post by grover on Mar 18, 2007 17:21:51 GMT -5
Wow, you're in total denial about the effects of amphetamines on a player.
Mantle didn't shorten his career with amphetamines, he shortened it by being a drunk.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 18, 2007 17:29:25 GMT -5
Everything he did hurt him.
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Post by grover on Mar 18, 2007 17:31:54 GMT -5
Now I'm not saying that roids are on the same page, but there is a strong link between the two. sorry, but you can't just erase people from the game without making a case to erase other people and other cheaters.
Heck, what about pitchers cutting the ball or using pine tar for grip, like Kenny Rogers? Is that not cheating? Is that not producing false results and false stats?
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 18, 2007 17:53:05 GMT -5
Actually, yes you can. Steroids are a drug that affects the record books directly. There's a reason there are more people joining the 500 club in the last few years than in the last few decades. Several actually, but steroids is a gigantic reason.
It's a question of deciding a degree of the crime. Kind of like manslaughter isn't as bad as murder.
And yes, Kenny Rogers cheated. He should have been suspended for that. But it's not as severe as steroids.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 18, 2007 17:57:25 GMT -5
Um...ironically enough, steroids were not even banned from baseball during the bulk of Bonds' career.
Oh, and one more small thing....he has never been found to have used anything.
Thanks.
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Post by grover on Mar 18, 2007 18:27:29 GMT -5
So wait, using pine tar to or cutting a baseball does not effect the record books? So the same result would have happened if they had not used pine tar or cut a baseball? That doesn't really make sense.
As for performance enhancers, it's not a cut and dry topic. There are TONS of new forms of things that come out, that you can buy at any health food store, that might be banned in the near future. Now, at the time it was legal and sold legally, and if someone took it, are they cheating? Andro, at the time McGwire was taking it, was legal.
The media is making such a farce of this it's not funny. Most of what they are reporting is horseshit, and they are cherry picking who to go after.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 19, 2007 5:58:39 GMT -5
It affects the record books, but even a shit like Kenny Rogers was not pine tarring his hand his whole career.
And it IS cut and dried with steroids. You use, your career numbers are forfeit. The "it was legal at the time" argument is malarky. It's still a steroid. It was banned in every sport but baseball, and it is banned in baseball today. That argument could work if we're talking about putting someone in jail, but we're not.
McGwire's career is malarky. So is Bonds'.
Keep that head in the sand Tom.
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Post by 9 on Mar 19, 2007 7:27:03 GMT -5
So what do you propose if the use of steroids, HGH, etc. is as widespread as I fear it is within the sport? Gutting the record books?
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 19, 2007 7:34:59 GMT -5
Any player caught using steroids would lose all their stats. I'm not saying game results get changed. Too impractical. But basically, wipe their baseball cards out. I'm not saying do some ancient Egyptian thing and remove their names from boxscores. But they would be ineligible for any records or the HOF.
Additionally, all contracts would be voidable at the choice of the team.
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