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Post by Chris on May 20, 2008 22:54:21 GMT -5
I thought this great player deserved his own thread.
It wasn't more than a decade or so ago when no one was talking about Barry Bonds or A-Rod. It was "Junior" who was the obvious future Home Run King. This was guy devastating in healthier days.
So what's the consensus feeling on Griffey? Is he still one of the greatest ever or is he nothing more than a savage disappointment due to an injury plagued career?
I did this for Mantle on this board a while back, and I've done the same just now for Griffey. These are VERY VERY rough numbers. Based on Griffey's current lifetime numbers he has a 1:15 Homerun to At-Bat ratio. Based on about 550 ABs per season, Griffey is deficient in At-Bats by an amount of about 1600 thanks to chronic injuries. That assumed, he would be at about 703 Homers right now. Of course some reasonable amount of DL time should be factored into that At-Bat estimate, but at the same time one could only assume that the 1:15 ratio might be more in Griffey's favor had most of those At-Bats come when completely healthy.
So, we have a great ballplayer here who should be sittin' pretty at about 700 HRs if he had a reasonably healthy career. But at the same time, I can help but think that maybe the fact that he's on the cusp of 600 homeruns despite an injury plagued career is even more of a testament to his greatness.
I think this guy should go down in discussions with guys like Mantle, Mays, DiMaggio, etc... but I'm afraid for him that he'll be remembered more as a disappointing image of what could have been.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 21, 2008 7:48:02 GMT -5
No doubt, his lustre has dimmed. Injuries were the main bane, certainly. But his name is nowhere on the radar anymore. I dont want to trivialize this by even bringing up fantasy baseball, but the guy is not even drafted in some leagues. He scares no one anymore. And he will fade in time.
500 and 600 home runs these days are akin to 400 and 500 decades ago. Home runs dont mean as much anymore, sadly. I dont roll out carpets for him based on those numbers alone. When I think of the top players these days I think of who is running the table. He has not run the table in years.
I think he is a non-factor these days. And I think his legacy has been smashed.
Great thread, Cho. I like these sorts of ideas.
For a time he was the most exciting player in baseball. I remember when he came up, and we watched with mouth agape. He could do it all. He was a sick, sick hitter. But
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 21, 2008 9:06:19 GMT -5
Obviously, the man will make the HOF. He dominated the game for a good period of time. But he basically had 2 careers--one as a HOFer, and one as a solid player. He won't lose the HOF status, but he'll never go down in history as one of the greatest of all time.
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Post by Chris on May 21, 2008 9:20:24 GMT -5
Good point about the homers, Tom. But one thing that stands out for me is the huge difference, even if it's only perception, in 500 and 600 homeruns - there is such a huge divide in greatness between the ever-growing crowd of guys who can eclipse 500, and the select few that break the 600 mark.
Arguably (again a matter of perception) Griffey will only be the fourth guy to legitimately break the 600 barrier.
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Post by Jason Giambi on May 21, 2008 10:39:47 GMT -5
maybe he did roids too, and the DL time is his post roid era.
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Post by Chris on May 21, 2008 10:57:35 GMT -5
His DL time started just as the prolific roids use was starting to heat up. Besides, he didn't display any of the telltale signs that other egregious abusers did.
Saying Barry Bonds used roids is a great deal more of an educated statement than mere speculation. Saying the same of Jr. would be nothing but a shot in the dark.
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Post by Jason Giambi on May 21, 2008 11:09:31 GMT -5
I realize it's a shot in the dark, but he did go from very healthy to very sickly quite quickly.
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Post by 9 on May 21, 2008 11:29:24 GMT -5
I'd have put a year's salary on him breaking 800 HRs. And I'd have lost a year's salary.
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Post by Chris on May 21, 2008 11:39:04 GMT -5
He probably won't even pass Mays at this rate.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 21, 2008 11:43:44 GMT -5
Griffey and steroids is of course possible, but like you said, it's NOT like Bonds.
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Post by Chris on Jun 10, 2008 9:13:17 GMT -5
#600!!! As the top of the page says.
600 Au-Naturale home runs.
Way to go, Junior.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jun 10, 2008 10:13:50 GMT -5
Definite tip of the cap is deserved. This has to be the least amount of fanfare ever for 600 HRs.
Only the 5th person in baseball history to do this.
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Post by Chris on Jun 10, 2008 10:22:21 GMT -5
Yeah, no kidding?
I'm still of the opinion that it's even MORE amazing that he's put up the numbers he has in an injury marred career than it would have been if he stayed healthy and put up Bonds-like numbers.
Personally, I think he's only the FOURTH person to do this.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jun 10, 2008 10:24:24 GMT -5
Definite tip of the cap is deserved. This has to be the least amount of fanfare ever for 600 HRs
Know why? It doesnt mean nearly as much anymore. When second basemen are hitting 30 homers with regularity, the bar is sky-high. While this is the first "in a long time" its going to end up a VERY crowded club in our lifetime.
And I am amused that everyone thinks its an automatic that Griffey never used anything. I personally dont believe he has, but what makes it so rock-solid? I mean, his injury record contains a lot of injuries consistent with someone who is "breaking down" - and steroids certainly help that along.
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Post by 9 on Jun 10, 2008 10:27:47 GMT -5
I suppose Mike and Mike's "logic" this morning would work: If he was on steroids, he'd have recovered much more quickly. I'm not saying I buy into that, but it's a theory.
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Post by Chris on Jun 10, 2008 10:29:04 GMT -5
I am amused that anytime someone accomplishes something great in baseball, the cloud of suspicion automatically floats over their heads.
Ken Griffey's injuries for the most part are not indicative of injuries incurred by someone breaking down after prolonged steroid use. Most of Griffey's injuries have been attributed to one specific violent (to some degree) mishaps on the field. This is not a guy who suffers from chronic wear and tear injuries...these have been acute injuries.
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Post by Chris on Jun 10, 2008 11:29:38 GMT -5
That swing is SWEET! Almost like Strawberry.
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Post by 9 on Jun 10, 2008 11:41:55 GMT -5
The sad thing is, no matter what else he accomplishes, the first thing to come to everyone's mind when discussing his career will be what COULD HAVE been.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jun 10, 2008 12:14:57 GMT -5
The "what could have been" also clouds Mantle's career, but doesn't take away from The Mick's legend.
Maybe Griffey doesn't get the suspicion because his main accomplishments were before the steroid era. Then again, maybe he was a pioneer.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Jun 10, 2008 13:12:08 GMT -5
roids have been around since before he was playing...... i hope that he didn't use them. He seems like a good guy.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jun 10, 2008 13:25:07 GMT -5
I'm sure they were around, but I guess there is no reason to believe he took them.
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Post by Chris on Feb 19, 2009 12:20:59 GMT -5
bump!
Guess that 611 HR mark is looking pretty damn impressive, in light of all that is going on.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 19, 2009 13:33:18 GMT -5
What sucks is that there will be questions, legit or not about even HIM. And I have to believe he's clean.
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Post by Chris on Feb 19, 2009 13:59:18 GMT -5
Everyone will be questioned now...and to Derek Jeter's point...it's not fair to the guys who did it clean all along.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 19, 2009 14:27:33 GMT -5
I agree, which is why not only should they release the other 103 names, everyone should be tested all the time.
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