Past gimmicks/Before they were stars

[MSBNYY]

We started this in the New Members thread, but it's better off here.

So over there we were talking about the early Kevin Nash stuff, pre WWF.

I had never seen Nash before he was Diesel, and was really exclusive WWF, so I know almost nothing about it, other than his name was Oz.

[$heriff Tom]

It did not last long, believe me. It was worse than it sounds. In his first appearance, he came out in a mask that had a white beard and long flowing white hair. I thought he was going to be wrestling in it, but he pulled it off to show frosted white hair, and goatee. Lime green tights. It was beyond bizarre. Nash had a series of awful gimmicks, starting with a Road Warrior-ish "Master Blaster" tag team gimmick (where his partner was so bad in their debut match he was immediatly fired and replaced) and then the silly "Vinny Vegas" gimmick. At least as Vinny Vegas he was able to show some of his wit.

[MSBNYY]

Wit is Nash's biggest strength. How is he doing in TNA right now? In passing, I can't remember ever seeing him actually wrestle. Mostly seemed to be doing skits.

www.obsessedwithwrestling.com is a great site. They have a pretty good library of pictures of various wrestlers, from all points in their careers. That's where I've been finding some of the older pictures I've posted yesterday and today.

This Oz gimmick sounds incredibly entertaining in a so bad it's good kind of way. Do you have any footage?

[$heriff Tom]

Balls, no doubt, that site is a treasure. I especially like that on the newer wrestler profiles, they update weekly with all of their tv match results, main angles, all of that. The pictures are great, the title histories, you name it. Its the baseball-reference.com of wrestling.

I actually do have some Oz footage, but I think only the one PPV match where he debuted. I have read in more than one place that the original plan was to not only keep the angle going, but - and I am not joking here - to introduce a whole stable including a Tinman character, a Scarecrow character, a Dorothy sort of valet....this quickly went into the dumper along with the idea of "wrestling hunchbacks" who could never be pinned cause, well, their hump would never let them lay flat on their backs for a pinfall.

Nash did not speak as Oz, I dont think. And he looked like he does now, with the short hair and goatee, except it was frosted and he was wearing those hideous neon tights. Today Nash is sort of "an advisor" of sorts for the X-Division guys, where he can show his zany and caustic barbs without wrestling. He is in bad shape, his body is all creaky. He plays his role now very well.

[MSBNYY]

Holy crap that sounds funny. I didn't realize that the Oz character actually was related to Wizard of Oz.

The hunchback wrestling angle would be very funny over a short period of time.

[$heriff Tom]

The hunchback gimmick actually got far enough that the office had a plan on how they could finally be pinned....an anything goes match, that heads outside.....one of the opponents digs a hole....you lay the hunchback over the hole, so the hump is inside, and the body is flat to the ground....and you get your pin. I mean, holy crap.

I have a cool tape at home, of wrestlers before they were stars working for Smoky Mountain wrestling - Cornette's old Southern hotbed. I will discuss a lot of that as we go along.

You ever see pics of Tazz when he was simply "The Tazmaniac!" A savage? What a goofball.

[MSBNYY]

Looks like he started as a tag team with 2 Tazmaniacs.





I was always disappointed in his WWE run. Either he did something to piss people off backstage, or McMahon just decided he was too small for a push.

[thecaptain15]

I am thinking to small for the push...I remebmer the Nash Oz and Vegas chacters..didn't miss much..lol

[$heriff Tom]

It was definatly the "too small for a push." In all fairness, Taz really did look like a midget next to the top WWF guys of the time. Even Angle made him look small. I have no problem with his lack of push in the WWF.

[MSBNYY]

I guess I wasn't a fan of that in part because I really enjoyed Taz' work in ECW. They really did a great job making him a top guy there, and to see him as a midcarder to jobber annoyed me. From a status standpoint, it was a huge mistake for him to go to the WWE.

But then again, from a money standpoint, it was a no brainer. Even as a midcarder, he had to do much better than in ECW, with more protection for his body. And then the announcing gig came and it was huge for him. I don't know if a midcarder makes more than an announcer, but that's a NICE job to get.

The big drawback was that he gained a LOT of weight.

[$heriff Tom]

They really did a great job making him a top guy there

Yeah, but for the most part he was the best of a very bad lot. Most of the guys he was "topping" could not do much of anything in the big time.

Taz had no complaints back then, he made a heap of money, and was seen by a much larger audience. He just did not fit the WWF style, and looked stupid in the same ring with some of their guys. When he mixed it up with Austin - sorry, but he just looked minor-league. And his ringwork by the time he got to the WWF was just not up to standards when he was in there with bigger guys.

As for "as a status thing, huge mistake to go to the WWF" - he would laugh in your face if you suggested that near him. He has admitted he had been trying to get into the WWF since the first time he appeared on ECW TV, and left at the first opportunity they offered him. Dont kid yourselves, as much "fun" as ECW was for some of these guys, they could not leave fast enough.

[MSBNYY]

Of course, he'd laugh. I would guess ECW wrestlers made a good chunk more than regular independent wrestlers. But even with a decent TV deal and a PPV run, I doubt that even the highest paid ECW wrestler made more than a WWF midcarder.

Loyalty is one thing, but financial security is another. Foley even talked about that in one of his books dealing with the "you sold out" chants. Who wouldn't take a higher paying job with less danger?

I'm sure the step up in money was incredible for Taz. Do the fans pay the bills of guys who don't "sell out?" Very dumb chant.

I don't blame Taz one bit. All I meant was that he went from being the top guy, to one of many. A main eventer to a midcarder. His character was great going in. It's not like he didn't work with bigger guys before. He had a hell of a match with Bam Bam for example.

From a storyline view, it didn't work for me. But of course, from a personal view, Taz did what was right for himself and his family.

This wasn't the only time McMahon ruined an aura of a "monster."

Vader was "the man" in WCW. He came to the WWF and ALSO became basically a midcarder. I didn't get that.

[sancho231]

yeah TAz was way too short to be a convincing WWE star.his pop was monster at his debut, and was on a roll untill that 3 way match he had with the Rock and Angle after that he was a hardcore belt guy. i did heard on a matt Zombie report that he was slated to get the IC belt but he injured his arm.but yeah he HAD to leave ECW who the fuck wants to work for free, and he had done pretty much everything in ECW anyway.

in the past gimmick dept. i give you The Sandman we all know and love

2006


1992
how the hell did this happen?

[$heriff Tom]

A main eventer to a midcarder

Yeah, a main-eventer who would play in front of 1,000 people twice a month, instead of a mid-carder who would play in front of 15,000 a dozen times a month. A main-eventer on a show with a 1.2 rating at 2AM on spotty networks across the country instead of a mid-carder on the highest rated show on cable television. Yeah, Balls, I am sure it was SO HARD for him to move on with his life and give up that main event push...

To liken it to what you could understand, this equates to a guy missing his days as the MVP of his high-school baseball team just cause he is just another utility infielder in the major leagues. Come on, man.

Sancho, interesting thing, that. Sandman was orignally named so cause his character was that of a "beach bum." Had nothing to do with the other incarnations of the Sandman name. It just evolved.

[MSBNYY]

Again, since your reading comprehension is faulty today, no one is BLAMING him. But at the same time, he was seen by a hell of a lot more than 1000 people thanks to television. THAT is why he got such a big pop.

[sancho231]

Ehh... on TV at 2 AM compared to RAW?Most people did not know who tazz is untill he got to the E.
ECW guys got big pops cause it was ECW. the homegrown talent was always over in ECW.its not like people went to just see taz people went to ECW to see "ECW"

[$heriff Tom]

Balls, you dont know what you are talking about. Tazz was met with complete apathy when he showed up in the WWF, outside of a quick initial pop when he came out for his surprise appearance at the Royal Rumble against Angle. The place was full of smart fans, and it was a local guy. The heat died soon after, and his further appearances were met with the same sort of silence Cade and Murdoch enjoy these days.

You need to do your research.

[MSBNYY]

Tom, you are the one who knows nothing. Taz got a MASSIVE pop when he debuted and beat Angle. I was in the arena.

[$heriff Tom]

I KNOW HE DID. I said as such in my post. But, you know what? Its the LAST ONE HE GOT. And that is why he went NOWHERE.

The reason he got that pop was a) - a local product b) - he had cool music, heard for the first time c ) - crowd was hot all night, period, and he was the first good-guy to come out on the PPV d ) the crowd was NY, and they are smart e) the match was kept obscenely short

Taz was a NOTHING in the WWE, getting dumped out of Royal Rumbles in 5 seconds a year later.

[MSBNYY]

The push died too quickly. But we covered that.

What was the story with Vader? Was he a dick or something backstage? Or did they just bring him in to make him a midcarder to slight WCW?

[$heriff Tom]

Vader kind of got out of shape. He came in with an ok push, even had a spot in the Final Four match for the World Title when they were running that. He was pushed as a monster for a time, and they even had him "attack" President Gorilla Monsoon.

But he was having trouble moving around. He came in with a rep as a problem backstage (and was actually beaten up backstage by Paul Orndorff in WCW) - if Vader had stayed a bit leaner, he could have went further in a WWF ring.

[MSBNYY]

I guess that makes sense. He always came off interesting as an agile big guy. And in WCW, he was one of those unstoppable monsters and at the top. Seeing him not go further was a surprise.

I guess Vince McMahon didn't screw Vader. Vader screwed Vader.

Back to the thread:

Check out young Yokozuna:

[grover]

Balls what are you going on about? Of COURSE Taz got a pop in New York, ECW was based on the east coast. Out in Cali, you think anyone from ECW would get any sort of pop? Not really, because anywhere Taz went, he got NO reaction.

I like this thread. LOL!

[sancho231]

York Fountadion was a good stable. theres no stables anymore
who could forget what he was doin a few years ealier

[grover]

[globix]

Chad Pennington (#12) had a gimmick before becoming a star??

[MSBNYY]

Before he was Kane, he was a dentist:



And Diesel...