The Steroids Thread

[MSBNYY]

www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/sports/baseball/31doping.html?_r=4&ref=sports

So now it looks like, SHOCKINGLY, Manny AND Ortiz are named on the 2003 steroid user list.

You mean a mediocre player from Minnesota CAN'T suddenly put up HOF numbers without cheating?

I guess that means 91 years without a tainted title.

[rlm6370]

Actual quote from Gammons

"I still haven't had it verified"

" It's possible he got the positive test and corrected his ways and never used again"

Now, that's journalism

[MSBNYY]

It's also possible that David Ortiz has a midget living in his helmet, but I don't think it's likely.

[sean]

wow. i would hope Gammons knows the times owns a piece of the Red Sox, and have even been rumored to be selling their ownership stake. No way in hell they go public with this unless it's been quadruple verified. Plus, Ortiz isn't giving it a "No comment" if it's not true

[4dogg]

oh yeah....shocking

[MSBNYY]

So Canseco is saying there's a HOFer who used. I hope he outs the guy. I'm hoping it's Ripken.

[$heriff Tom]

First off, why didnt you just add this to the NINETEEN PAGE THREAD we had on the subject (the Mitchell report thread is full of steroid /drug talk)

Arroyo: ‘Wouldn’t be surprised’ to be on drug list

Reds pitcher Bronson Arroyo(notes) admits he took amphetamines. Whether that put him on the 2003 list of players who tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs, he says he’s not sure.

“What I said was anybody could be on the list,” Arroyo said before Cincinnati played Colorado on Friday night. “I said I wouldn’t be surprised if I was.”

Arroyo, who played for the Boston Red Sox from 2003-05, was quoted in Friday’s Boston Herald as saying he took androstenedione and amphetamines, which could have produced positive tests.

Any player who tested positive was supposed to be informed by the players’ union, and Arroyo said he was never notified.

On Thursday, the New York Times reported David Ortiz(notes) and Manny Ramirez(notes) were among the 104 players whose names were on the list. Arroyo played with them in Boston.

“Before (2004), none of us paid attention to what we took,” said Arroyo, who said he started to take androstenedione in 1998, when he was in Pittsburgh’s farm system. “That’s why I said anybody could be on the list. Back then, nobody knew what was in the stuff, because the (Federal Drug Administration) wasn’t regulating all of it.”

Androstenedione was banned in 2004 and amphetamines in 2006. Arroyo didn’t see any measurable boost on the field from what he was taking, but he believed they still helped.

“I’d take anything I can get from (a nutrition store) if you tell me it would make me better on the field,” said Arroyo, acquired by the Reds in spring training of 2006. “Of course I took an (amphetamine) on a day game—a 12:35 game pitching against Johan Santana(notes).”

The 32-year-old Arroyo said he now limits his intake to legal supplements such as protein, vitamins, ginseng and a caffeine drink he says he learned about from former teammate Curt Schilling(notes).

“There’s plenty of things that guys would like to take that we’re not allowed to any more,” he said. “Honestly, I would love to not take any of the supplements I take. I’d love to wake up in the morning and have some fruit and a bowl of cereal and have a good lunch, and maybe take a multivitamin for the day, but the reality is, I’m probably not going to be as good a major league pitcher if I do.”

[MSBNYY]

How could these players NOT KNOW if they are on the list?

[mookyanks]

Every single player on the list knows they are on the list. Ortiz is so full of shit.

The Mitchell report even says that all 103 players that failed the test were notified that they failed back in 2003. ARod admitted to knowing, as well.

Buster Olney called Ortiz a liar on Sportcenter on Thursday for saying he didn't know that he failed

[Chris]

So Hank Aaron is publicly calling for the Mitchell Report's list of names to be published.

Of course he is...he is DYING to see Barry Bonds' name exposed.

[MSBNYY]

I thought Bonds was already implicated.

From the Bonds thread:

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,487633,00.html

[Chris]

Bonds has been implicated in a hundred different sources...but the Mitchell Report has the stigma about it...and to see Bonds' name in the report, IN IT'S ENTIRETY, would go a long way in reinstating Aaron as the true HR King and Maris as the true single season HR King (assuming Mac and Sosa are also on that list).

[MSBNYY]

Sosa has already been named on the 2003 list. McGwire's own brother outed him on real steroids.

www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2009/01/21/2009-01-21_jay_mcgwire_pitching_book_detailing_brot-1.html

sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4264062

[Lindsey]

I just recently watched the episode of South Park that dealt with steroids. w/ mcguire, sosa, and Giambi.

[MSBNYY]

I remember that they did that, but not much else.

[Lindsey]

Cartman pretended to be 'retarded' so he could win the Special Olympics. all the while the actually retarded kid 'Jimmy' was using steroids and beat everyone by a mile. they brought out Giambi, mcguire and sosa to give awards out to the kids. it's pretty hilarious

[MSBNYY]

I remember that one now. I love South Park. One of the smartest shows on TV.

[MSBNYY]

As if there were any doubt, McGwire admits to using steroids.

mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100111&content_id=7900244&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[Chris]

So did everyone see the McGwire interview with Costas.

Not much to say about it. Typical. Lots of tears, lots of remorse, and I believe they were genuine.

However, what's new - yet another admitted steroid user claiming he only used to them to recover from injury, that they did not enhance his performance, and that his numbers are legit. None of these guys will ever come off that stance - none of these guys are ever going to outright admit that their numbers are fraudulent.

I don't know...for me, McGwire isn't even on my radar. He's such a non-story. We've had three years of him getting 20-something percent in the HOF voting, and that won't change. He's irrelevant.

[Chris]

I don't think you'd find many people who don't still consider Roger Maris as the single season home run record holder.

[MSBNYY]

What pisses me off is that other than his reputation, what has McGwire lost? His numbers should be wiped from the record books, as should Bonds, as should Sosa, and as should anyone on that list of 103 players and then some. Yes, Pettitte and ARod too.

[IronHorse4]

Why should people lose a baseball record if they didn't do anything that was banned by baseball?

I find that plenty of people don't consider Roger Maris the record holder, because, well...he's not.

What I do find, and I agree with, is that while Bonds is the record holder, the record just doesn't mean that much anymore. That's a shame.

But yes, technically Bonds is the record-holder.

[MSBNYY]

Steroids were an illegal drug even in the 1990s. Illegal drugs are banned by baseball, even in the 1990s. Had McGwire and Sosa admitted they were doping up in the 1990s, there would have been consequences. It would not have been swept under the rug and ignored, Bud Selig style.

Roger Maris has the most homeruns in a single season of anyone who played the game clean.

And yes, the record means shit now, thanks to these cheats. They didn't earn their numbers, which is why that while many people DON'T consider Maris to be the record holder, many people (albeit a minority), do.

I think that those who feel the records are sacred numbers are more likely to ignore Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and all those cheats.

And I'll also add that the Commissioner has broad powers to act in the "best interest of baseball."

That alone could justify making the record books more honest.

[Chris]

Justin, this is like O.J. Technically in a California State Court, O.J. was acquitted of murder. The court of public opinion has and always will hold him as guilty as sin.

Bonds is technically the record holder. Maris is thee guy we all believe hit 60 dingers, un-aided, in a single season.

[Chris]

AND...if someone free of any steroid allegations were to hit 62 homeruns next year, I'd think most people would consider that one hell of an accomplishment, superior to anything accomplished by McGwire, Bonds, or Sosa.

[heartybooooo]

McGuirre broke the record and so did Sosa and Bonds. Get over it.

If the standard is illegal drugs, should we get rid of Paul Molitor, an admitted cocaine user? What about all the players in the '50s and forward who took amphetimines? Also illegal. I bet Marris is one of them. This self righteousness bothers the shit out of me. I think we should throw all the admitted ball scuffing pitchers out of the Hall too. They broke rules.

[MSBNYY]

No they didn't. They cheated. Just like when Ben Johnson used steroids to beat the 100M record, he cheated, and lost the record.

Cocaine does not pad stats. Neither do amphetimines.

The 2 wrongs make a right defense is as dumb as trying to acknowledge the accomplishments of steroid users as legit.

As for guys like Gaylord Perry, who scuffed the ball, he SHOULD be thrown out of the Hall.

[IronHorse4]

Maris had a lot of sleepless nights that year. If he took speed just one time, he took an illegal substance that wasn't specifically banned by baseball but was illegal in the United States, just like McGwire did.

I agree with the sentiment that if someone hit 62 cleanly now, it would be one hell of an accomplishment.

Sadly, it wouldn't be the record.

Ben Johnson was banned because he used a substance specifically banned by the IOC.

[MSBNYY]

It would be the record for people who didn't cheat. It's like acknowledging that woman who ran the last mile of the marathon by starting at the 25 mile point, and "won" the thing. She crossed the finish line first, but cheated.

There is no evidence that Maris took speed.

But again, the two wrongs make a right defense doesn't work, especially since Maris didn't use steroids.

[heartybooooo]

If amphetimines don't help you battle fatigue, then why were they taken? Seems like it would enhance performance. I didn't say two wrongs make a right. You are the one who has created this artificial boundary of what is ok and and what is not. I just have a different one or not one at all. Your lines in the sand seem inconsistent to me and I am just trying to understand them.