$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 12, 2010 14:27:42 GMT -5
for guys like Gaylord Perry, who scuffed the ball, he SHOULD be thrown out of the Hall.
Whitey Ford, too? Whitey Ford freely acknowledged scuffing up the ball with all kinds of things later in his career, in his own book. I guess Whitey Ford should be kicked out too? Oh, and dont forget Mickey Mantle and all the "greenies" he was taking just to make it on the field after destroying himself night after night.
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 12, 2010 14:28:15 GMT -5
Another completely irrelevant example. That woman broke the rules by running only 1.2 miles.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 12, 2010 14:42:51 GMT -5
And McGwire broke the rules by using an illegal substance to enhance his performance.
Again, the two wrongs make a right defense just doesn't combat steroid use in baseball.
|
|
|
Post by heartybooooo on Jan 12, 2010 14:45:23 GMT -5
He broke the law (maybe), not the rules.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 12, 2010 14:51:37 GMT -5
And McGwire broke the rules by using an illegal substance to enhance his performance.
Again, the two wrongs make a right defense just doesn't combat steroid use in baseball.
Sorry, it appears you missed my question above. Please, boot Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford from the Hall too?
Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by heartybooooo on Jan 12, 2010 15:04:04 GMT -5
If that is the line you want to lose, please be as adamant and self righteous in that regard.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 12, 2010 15:05:25 GMT -5
If you can show that Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford used steroids, then yes, boot them.
The chemicals Mickey Mantle put in his body did not help his career--and in fact shortened it, and as for Ford, by all means, the cheating can certainly make a case for his removal from the HOF.
Still doesn't change that all records "accomplished" by steroid users should be wiped from the books.
Mickey Mantle could have secretly thrown every ball over the wall for his HRs, and Whitey Ford could have paid the umpires to make better calls.
Still doesn't fix the record books.
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 12, 2010 15:06:50 GMT -5
What will combat steroid use in baseball is the testing that baseball now demands. Baseball didn't demand it back then, and didn't even ban steroids back then. Since baseball didn't ban it back then and take the necessary steps to determine there was a problem and to solve it back then,baseball simply cannot remove the records from back then.
Just doesn't make any sense at all to do that.
Court of public opinion has convicted these people already. That's pretty much where it ends regarding issues in the past; in baseball, and in every other sport.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 12, 2010 15:10:19 GMT -5
I am in agreement with Justin in that the court of public opinion is now in session, and rules have since been implemented to where the nonsense should be curbed. Lets move on.
if Balls had his way, the Baseball Record Book would have lots of blank spots.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 12, 2010 15:24:01 GMT -5
If people knew how widespread the juicing was, and it was as publicized in 1998 as it is today, then absolutely it would have been dealt with. Selig only acted when CONGRESS forced him to act.
Yes, in the court of public opinion, their careers are virtually worthless. But there is another step baseball can take, and that's to fix the record book by removing the entries of all steroid users. If you need a line there it is. Just like olympic athletes lose records and medals they got through steroids, the same should happen in baseball.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 12, 2010 15:54:51 GMT -5
LOL!
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 12, 2010 16:05:52 GMT -5
Your solution is still half-assing it, though. If baseball was ruined so much to the point where the offender's statistics should be wiped from history as though it never happened, then they really should wipe out any victories incurred by the teams in whose games they played. It's only right. After all, the victories are tainted.
Let's crack open the seal on that list of 104 and get moving on it.
Anyone on that list that helped their team win a World Series...gotta hand back that trophy, I'd say. It's only fair to those who did it the right way.
If we're wiping out stats, then let's do it right. No turning back now, Balls.
Damn shame, too...I really enjoyed that Pettitte-Smoltz matchup in '96. Never happened, though.
Sorry, Andy. You're a rumor, recognizable only as deja vu and dismissed just as quickly. You don't exist; you were never even born. Anonymity is your name. Silence your native tongue. You're no longer part of the System. You're above the System. Over it. Beyond it. You're "them." You're "they."
You are the Men In Balls.
|
|
|
Post by heartybooooo on Jan 12, 2010 16:10:29 GMT -5
The chemicals Mickey Mantle put in his body did not help his career
That is probably true of the alcohol and cigarettes which were neither illegal nor banned by the sport. Amphetimines I'm not so sure. It seems to me that they would enhance performance. And irrespective of that, they were and are illegal. Again, I'm not sure what your line is? How do you evaluate whether something helps performance or not?
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 12, 2010 16:11:24 GMT -5
Yeah, how bout the 2000 Yankees? There are like 10 or more guys who were on that roster who ended up being tied into the steroid scandal!
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jan 12, 2010 16:52:48 GMT -5
I'm not, nor have I ever been in favor of erasing stats that were achieved on the field....even though I LOATHE the steroid users as much as Balls does.
I feel comfortable that the sports fans, writers, and the court of public opinion are smart enough to interpret the backsides of baseball cards for what they are. I think people are smart enough to distinguish, for example, the legitimacy of the two guys (A-Rod and McGwire) sandwiched between Frank Robinson and Harmon Killebrew on the all time HR list ... and I'm comfortable that the appropriate legacies will be maintained. There's no way you're ever going to convince me that Big Mac is an equivalent baseball player to Harmon Killebrew, despite his stats. And I'm sure most reasonable baseball fans will come to the same conclusion. I'm fine with that and sure that the writers and veterans who have a say in the HOF will do their best to serve up justice in terms of the HOF.
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 12, 2010 17:11:58 GMT -5
I agree that the writers will do what they feel is the right thing and keep him out. We'll never really know, I guess, if McGwire was any better than Harmon Killebrew (though I'm pretty sure he was...both were one-trick ponies and hit a lot of home runs), and the voting process will filter that out.
But it sounds like most of us are in agreement that you can't simply wipe out stats.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jan 12, 2010 17:24:07 GMT -5
You can't because of the slippery slope factor.
Most of us agree that injecting yourself in the ass with steroids is a far cry worse than Don Sutton walking out to the mound with the contents of an 8oz. jar of Vaseline smeared under the bill of his cap, or even Mickey Mantle popping an amphetamine.
But if we go down this slippery slope, the next thing you know we'll have wiped out Babe Ruth's entire existence because he didn't play against black players.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 12, 2010 17:49:04 GMT -5
Wiping out individual records punishes the offender. Wiping out team wins punishes innocents who didn't cheat. The two are completely different animals.
I know the thought of wiping out any Yankee accomplishments would give Tom a boner, and now people reading this have the image of Tom with a boner, but it's not that complicated a line.
People who use steroids are disqualified from consideration in the record books. Not that complicated.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jan 12, 2010 18:08:31 GMT -5
It is a complicated line.
If you get your way, and people who used (PROVEN to have used, as in there is a failed drug test on the books....apparently no such test exists for McGwire) steroids are wiped from the books ..... well, what do you then say to people who want to wipe the stats away from players who used amphetamines? What's your comeback for that?
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 12, 2010 18:10:09 GMT -5
Amphetimines are not the same thing as steroids. It's like when you punish someone greater for using cocaine v. marijuana.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jan 12, 2010 18:14:46 GMT -5
It can be argued that the use of amphetamines enhanced the user's performance on the field.
Amphetamines = speed = produce increased wakefulness and focus in association with decreased fatigue. How would that not directly enhance a baseball player's ability to perform on the field?
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 12, 2010 21:28:20 GMT -5
Been saying that for years.
- Mickey Mantle does not hit 536 home runs without amphetamines
- Amphetamines were illegal in the United States, just as they are now
- Amphetamines were not specifically banned in baseball, just like steroids were not
- Using this simple logic, it is hypocrisy to ban McGwire and not Mantle
Balls is right...it's not complicated. It's extremely simple.
The numbers have to go. And if you remove the stats of people that cheated, then you have to remove ALL the numbers that they affected. Wins? Forfeited. Titles? Forfeited.
Hell, I wonder how many runs Rickey Henderson scored when batted in by Canseco, McGwire, Giambi, and Caminiti? I hope it's not more than 50, because those suckers were batted in by cheaters...so those numbers have to go. I think Ty Cobb just got his runs title back! Congrats, Ty!
As for affecting the innocent...can't worry about that anymore. The damage is done there. Those of us that chose to believe that we were watching history in the making have already been punished.
But I guess we're not innocent. Just ignorant.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 13, 2010 6:58:15 GMT -5
Again, you're ignoring that not EVERYONE on a team cheated, which is why titles are different from stats.
It's just like Ben Johnson losing his record because he didn't actually achieve it. Rickey Henderson didn't cheat, therefore runs his numbers wouldn't be affected.
There is no perfect answer, but it wouldn't be justice to ignore team accomplishments or punish the teammates of people who used steroids.
And again, greenies and steroids are not the same thing.
Again, it's like comparing marijuana to cocaine in terms of severity.
A wise man I know is fond of saying "let's not turn a robbery into a murder."
They are not the same, and it is in the best interest of baseball for all steroid records to be wiped from the books.
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 13, 2010 10:46:05 GMT -5
No, actually it's in the best interest of baseball to let it go and move forward.
But like I said, if you want to wipe out records, then you have to wipe out everything. I think baseball realizes that, and so they quite logically are not doing that.
And in baseball's eyes, greenies and steroids ARE the same thing. Because the penalty is the same for both. And there was no penalty for either during the time we are discussing. So, logically, Major League Baseball itself simply cannot punish someone for something for which there was no established penalty when it happened.
Talk about turning a robbery into a murder.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 13, 2010 10:59:20 GMT -5
The record books, especially the single season and career HR records, are sacred. Baseball can move forward if those cheaters are disqualified.
Greenies and steroids are not the same thing--not in the minds of the public, and not in the minds of anyone with a clue.
Greenies do not make you physically stronger, they make you mentally more up, which will not have the same effect on the records.
That's why you didn't see 500 HR become child's play before steroids hit.
Using steroids IS a murder.
Greenies--not as serious because the records did not face the same threat.
Baseball has been anything but logical when it comes to steroids. They only moved when forced by Congress. They want to ignore it. That's their attitude.
Since most people do not consider McGwire, Bonds or Sosa to be relevant anyway, having them on top of the record books only taints the record books the way they tainted the game.
They should be disqualified from holding records, and should be disqualified from the HOF.
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 13, 2010 11:27:10 GMT -5
But...they didn't break the rules any more than Mickey Mantle did.
That has to be the line. You can rationalize it all you like, like you normally do when things don't go your way. But the bottom line is that regardless of severity, Mark McGwire broke (or didn't break) whatever rules that Mickey Mantle broke (or didn't break).
Period.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 13, 2010 14:14:22 GMT -5
Their records are the direct result of their cheating. Greenies don't do what steroids do. That is the bottom line. And that's where the line is crossed. Again--it's like comparing marijuana to cocaine. There are different degrees. And incidentally, steroids were banned in 1991, according to a memo sent out by Fay Vincent. So McGwire and Bonds, and all those juicers did violate the rules. It looks like amphetamines though, were not on the banned list until 2005: www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/columnist/bodley/2005-11-15-bodley-amphetmines_x.htmBy your own rationale, as ridiculous as it can seem, it looks like the players of the 1980s violated no policy, while McGwire and the juicers absolutely did. Either way, the effects of steroids on the record book far outdoes the effects of amphetamines.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 13, 2010 14:51:30 GMT -5
Additionally, amphetamines were not an illegal drug until Congress made them illegal without a perscription in 1970--after Mantle retired by the way.
They weren't even banned in the Olympics until 1968.
In short, they weren't even an illegal drug.
So Mantle didn't use any illegal substances. The juicers did.
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 13, 2010 16:07:04 GMT -5
I still held on to the ball, too. Triumph over cheating.
Fine, 1970. Then ban everyone from the 70s. Wonder if Reggie Jackson ever popped greenies. Doesn't matter who did it, though. Ban them.
Ban McGwire, and ban everyone who took greenies from 1970 onward. Hank Aaron...ban him. He took greenies his whole career. And I believe he broke the Babe's record in 1974! Ban him! Babe gets his record back!!
Tony Gwynn estimated that 50% of players popped greenies during his day. Ban them!
And Fay Vincent's memo did prohibit the use of steroids, yes. Even went so far as to say that any player used them risks permanent expulsion from the game.
Just like gambling.
And, just like the gambling rule, there is no mention of removing stats. Because that would be ludicrous.
So expel McGwire from the game. Expel A-Rod from the game. Expel Andy Pettitte from the game. But if you remove their numbers, you have to remove every number that they contributed to.
ETA: Looks like deleting is still en vogue over here, too.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 13, 2010 16:12:36 GMT -5
Balls, heres another tricky crux to this.
If you take away a guys Home Runs for steroids, i guess you need to REMOVE those home runs off the pitchers ledger, right? I mean, according to you, they were not hit, they dont count...
So the entire baseball ledger needs to be reworked, and stats need to be redone.
|
|