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Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 13, 2010 16:20:43 GMT -5
Wow...numbers are dropping everywhere!
Home runs!
Runs Batted In!
EARNED RUN AVERAGES!!!
EVERYTHING MUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT'S TOTALLY IN-SAAAAAAAAAAANE!!!
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 13, 2010 18:03:53 GMT -5
Tom--no. I know it's tricky because of that, but no, you can't do that. Nothing is perfect, but ultimately, the best you can do is disqualify the player from holding records because of the cheating.
So for purposes of the records and the HOF, a guy like Bonds would not be considered the record holder, because he didn't earn the record. He cheated.
The best example I keep using, even if it isn't perfect because it's an individual sport, is Ben Johnson, who ran the 100 M race faster than any man in history, but cheated. So his record time, while it still happened, was stricken from the record, and he lost his gold medal.
You can't perfectly do that in baseball because too many people are affected by too many things, but you certainly can give the crown back to Aaron and to Maris, who rightfully are the kings at what they did, because they got there legitimately.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 13, 2010 18:33:23 GMT -5
Great example, Balls. Let's talk about Ben Johnson.
Ben Johnson lost his gold medal in that race. The world record he set in that race was wiped out as well. Carl Lewis' time was then officially recognized as the world record.
Carl Lewis was also awarded the gold medal in that race, as he was in second place.
As for team events, let's talk about Marion Jones and her 4x400 relay team that won gold in 2000. The IOC has stripped them of their gold medals, because one of the members of the team (Jones) was using banned substances. They have appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport to reverse that decision. The Court has made a preliminary decision not to overturn the decision. They will hear the full case later this year though.
If the appeal fails, the I.O.C. will follow through with its decision, and they will award the gold medals to Jamaica, who finished second in the race.
So the IOC (Balls' crutch until he tries to dig up an other example) clearly realizes that, while 75% of the team is innocent, 1 member of the team cheated, so the team loses. We'll see what arbitration bears out. And if the Court upholds the decision, and Major League Baseball follows through with MetsSuckBalls' idea, well....
Ladies and Gentlemen....your 2000 World Champion New York Mets!!!
A delicious irony, if ever there was one.
Damn...with the way I'm knocking this stuff out of the park, you'd think I was on HGH.
I should call you "T-Balls" from now on. Keep settin them up.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 13, 2010 19:04:35 GMT -5
Which is why I said flat out, it was not a perfect example and baseball is not a perfect parallel to the Olympics.
The point though is that the Johnson record was not allowed to stand.
I also never said the olympic committee got everything right, nor do I agree with the decision to strip the whole team for the actions of one member. Though I do agree that Jones should not have a gold medal. Punish the guilty, not the innocents. There is no justice in punishing the innocents.
The New York Yankees, the organization did not cheat. The 2000 Mets did not win a championship, and by your logic, every single person of the Mets would have to be shown innocent, which is impossible--especially given that there are 101 names or so from the 2003 list that are still unnamed.
Oh, and incidentally, Mike Piazza and Todd Pratt are also implicated steroid users, which taints that team as well.
Bottom line, there is still no reason to extend individual failures to team efforts, no matter how badly you want to do that, though the 2000 championship is tainted. So are Boston's 2 championships this decade.
However, that still doesn't change that the two biggest HR records are frauds, and should not be recognized. Even if Bud Selig is too big of an asshole to do anything, the bottom line is that the people think of Bonds as the HR king about as much as they think of OJ as innocent.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 13, 2010 21:23:40 GMT -5
Actually, all of the championships are tainted for the Yankees between 1996 and 2000.
Piazza and Pratt are not admitted, proven steroid/HGH users. At least, not yet. Implicated does not mean proven. And if they did, then we keep digging until we find a winner.
Hell, the Pirates might have won a championship yet!
Bottom line is, if winning was achieved by cheating, and you want to erase the accomplishments of the cheaters, then you have to erase all of it.
You're absolutely right about that. That is the bottom line. And given what is involved, that's where it should, and will, stay.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 13, 2010 23:46:26 GMT -5
Yeah, Balls, you are fighting yet another losing battle. Par for the course for you, in actuality.
It is what it is. LOL @ throwing the names of Piazza and Pratt out there cause you believe they have been "implicated." LOL!
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 14, 2010 7:03:31 GMT -5
That's where you're wrong.
"The Story: Piazza reportedly admitted that he used performance enhancing drugs to at least one unnamed reporter. Long rumored to have used steroids, at least two former players were quoted as saying they were sure that Piazza used. Former New York Times reporter, Murray Chass, said that he had been aware of Piazza's severe back acne (a common side-effect of using steroids) and that it cleared up in 2004 when MLB instituted its first testing program with penalties. Piazza was named most significantly in Jeff Pearlman's book, The Rocket That Fell To Earth."
Todd Pratt was named in the Mitchell Report.
And again, you punish the individual, not the team. Justice doesn't require making up fictional champions. It does require erasing fictional records.
The public in general doesn't recognize Bonds' records anyway. There's no reason to keep the books tainted. What's even worse is that the person with the biggest shot right now at dethroning Bonds is ARod, and he's just as tainted.
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Post by heartybooooo on Jan 14, 2010 12:42:24 GMT -5
Balls keeps saying that Greenies don't impact performance in the same way. I don't think that has been proven one way or another. I would imagine a tired, hung over player would not perform as well as one hopped up on speed. But maybe that's just me. There is no proof that steroids can make you hit a ball or hit a ball further. If anything, most doctors talk that it improves your muscle recovery. Sounds similar to greenies and mental recovery.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 14, 2010 13:25:36 GMT -5
I think the lack of an assault on the record books by people on greenies, v. the obliteration of records by the juicers, speaks volumes.
I'm not saying that greenies don't help you. The proof of the impact of steroids is in the records. As you pointed out, they affect you physically in your muscle recovery, and do help you train harder and get stronger. Not to mention, they also help with running faster as well.
Look at how Clemens played when he took steroids and when he didn't. The results changed dramatically when he cycled in beginning in the second half of 2000.
The degree upon which steroids affected the record books is unquestionable. The top 4 single season HR records are all known juicers. (Sosa twice, McGwire, Bonds). Look at the difference between Bonds' HR totals before 1999 and after.
People on greenies did not get better in their late 30s like juicers do.
Different drugs get you high, but some drugs have a stronger effect than others.
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Post by heartybooooo on Jan 14, 2010 14:04:49 GMT -5
Well if you are looking at the data, it is hard to discern the impact of greenies. If you believe the anecdotes, a large percentage of players have been taking them for a long time, so no easy demarkation. In addition, looking at individuals doesn't take into account other factors like expansion (in the early to mid 90s), new ballparks, new baseballs, ever improving training techniques, technology of bats, etc.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 14, 2010 14:24:22 GMT -5
It IS hard to discern the impact of greenies. But it is not nearly as hard to discern the impact of steroids, as the incredible numbers have shown. Yes, expansion and other factors impact baseball too, but given that you aren't seeing the same juiced up numbers since the steroid policies have been enacted, it's safe to say that steroids impacted the numbers more than expansion or new ballparks.
You CAN point to Bonds, McGwire and Sosa and say that they would not put up those numbers without steroids. There's no question that steroids impacted the records more than greenies.
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Post by heartybooooo on Jan 14, 2010 14:34:00 GMT -5
You may think it is true and it probably is, but there is no proof.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 14, 2010 16:07:53 GMT -5
125 years of no one accomplishing what these guys did on the juice is proof enough.
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Post by heartybooooo on Jan 14, 2010 16:19:35 GMT -5
Nobody had hit 61 before Maris, so he must have juiced. And Ichiro with the most hits, he must have juiced. Flawed logic. Although not surprising.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 14, 2010 17:31:17 GMT -5
Babe Ruth hit 60. They didn't have steroids back then either. When 3 people do something that no one did, while juicing, it's a pretty good piece of evidence. While you are doing a good job at playing devil's advocate, you are not disproving the facts that steroids do physically affect a player to his benefit. If anything, the burden of proof would be on the juicers to show that it would not have affected anything, which is impossible.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 15, 2010 11:13:47 GMT -5
www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/72417928E13E65A5862576AC0011383B?OpenDocumentFunny rant by Jack Clark: Former Cardinals slugger Jack Clark apparently isn't enamored of the current hitting coach, especially in light of Mark McGwire's admission a few days ago that he had used steroids in 1998-99 when he played for the Cardinals and before that with Oakland. Clark, who spoke whatever was on his mind when he played — he was a big factor in two National League pennants for the Cardinals in the 1980s — and occasionally when he hasn't been playing, said Thursday he was disgusted with the whole steroids issue and McGwire's now confirmed involvement in it. "A lot of them should be banned from baseball, including Mark McGwire," Clark said. CARDS EXTRAS CARDINAL BEAT: Daily blog of Cardinals news and notes BIRD LAND: Derrick Goold's baseball blog SOUND OFF: Cards Talk forum STATS: Cards in 2009 P-D PHOTOS: Cardinals galleries P-D STORIES: Last 14 days of Cards coverage QUIZ: Cards postseason history "All those guys are cheaters —A-Rod (Alex Rodriguez). Fake, phony. Rafael Palmeiro. Fake, a phony. "(Roger) Clemens, (Barry) Bonds. (Sammy) Sosa. Fakes. Phonies. They don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. "They should all be in the Hall of Shame. They can afford to build it. They've all got so much money. And they could all go there and talk about the next way to rub something on your skin. The whole thing is creepy. "They're all creeps. All these guys have been liars," Clark said. Referring to some of the admitted steroids users' tearful apologies, Clark, who was the Los Angeles Dodgers' hitting coach several years ago, said, "They're not really a man's man. They're just whimpering boys who are just sad to watch. "They try to put it off on somebody else. I don't know how they sleep at night, looking at all their fame, let alone the money they took by faking everybody out and lying to everybody. ... "I don't know. I'd rather take my 340 home runs (11 seasons of more than 20) legitimately instead of taking that stuff to be phony." Former Cardinals outfielder Andy Van Slyke, agreeing in part with Clark, said, "I never condoned a player who used steroids while they played, but I've never been mad at a player. But I think if you have an opportunity to tell the truth and you continue to be disingenuous and lie, then there's every right for people to be upset by the continued lying or finger-pointing. "There's a lot of finger-pointing by Mark McGwire. He blames it on not being tested and he blames it on the era. Why would you blame baseball for taking steroids? "That's like me saying the reason I was drunk driving was because I knew that on this particular highway, they didn't have anything for me to blow into." Clark criticized McGwire's initial statements that McGwire's swing and mechanics were good enough that they would have allowed him to hit the record-setting 70-homer total he achieved in 1998 without the aid of steroids. As if he were speaking to McGwire, Clark said, "No, because your hand-eye coordination was not good enough. You're kind of a big goof. You had one thing. If you uppercut a ball, you might hit it. "If his hand-eye coordination was so good, why did he feel the need to apologize to the (Roger) Maris family?" Clark asked. "It's shame that he thinks we're all stupid, that he only did (steroids) because of injuries. That's such a cop-out, such a lie. These guys did (steroids) to take the money to pump up their egos and then take their consequences down the road. Van Slyke played many years in Pittsburgh with Barry Bonds, who has been at the center of the steroids-HGH issue. As to whether Bonds would ever pull a McGwire, Van Slyke said, "If he does come forward, I hope he'll be truthful. One thing about Barry. He's not afraid to speak the truth. For the last four years (since his appearance before a congressional committee), McGwire could have said something." Clark said the steroids abusers and suspected users "are all lucky they didn't end up in jail. It's all comical to a certain point. It's a three-ring circus. It really is. "From (commissioner) Bud Selig to Tony (La Russa) to A-Rod to Manny Ramirez to Palmeiro ... what a joke." Clark insists that Selig and La Russa, among others, knew more about the use of steroids 10 to 20 years ago than they were letting on. "(McGwire's) own manager never knew that (Jose) Canseco and McGwire and anybody else ever had taken steroids?" Clark said. "Trust me, from (a former player), I have a lot of insight into who did what and when but I'm not even going to talk about it. It really doesn't matter. "This thing stretches a long way back and it's really ugly and just really shocking. ... "These guys are playing the game for their own benefits and it's really disgusting. ... They go up there and shed a tear and they think all is forgotten. Well, it's not forgotten and it never will be." Clark and McGwire both are scheduled to be at the club's Winter Warm-Up this weekend. Should they meet, Clark said, "I'm not going to say hello. I'm not going to shake his hand. He's a sad excuse for a player in the industry of baseball. Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up. "He should not be in baseball. He should be banned from baseball more than ever."
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Post by 9 on Jan 15, 2010 11:30:53 GMT -5
LOL @ whimpering boys!
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 15, 2010 12:49:19 GMT -5
I really had trouble deciding whether to put this in the Steroid Thread, or the Baseball LOL thread. Fits both categories.
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Post by 9 on Jan 15, 2010 12:50:10 GMT -5
Amen to that. Clark sounds like one of those grumpy old-timers who played with Ruth. He's old, but not THAT old.
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 2, 2010 15:12:15 GMT -5
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Post by sean on Apr 20, 2010 14:17:51 GMT -5
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