MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 2, 2007 12:50:39 GMT -5
You give Jeter the same numbers, right now, ignoring post-season, and he's still in.
As for Blyleven, I think he should be in. He and Tommy John both deserve it. We've had that discussion before though.
Tommy John and Bert Blyleven are the top 2 guys in wins who aren't in the HOF. It's like half a win a year more and they'd be automatic. Seems stupid.
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Post by grover on Aug 2, 2007 13:09:26 GMT -5
Of Course, because Jeter is a Yankee. He has no milestones, but he's in if he retired today. Why? Because he's a Yankee, and that's all the reason you need, right Balls? You just said it, give him the stats and he's in.
It's ok for Yankees to not reach milestones and not be good enough, but not for anyone else. YANKEE BASEBALL!!
As for Blyleven, I think he should be in. He was on some really bad teams, and that's what's holding him back.
Balls, give up the Tommy John case. He's a compiler.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Aug 2, 2007 13:16:35 GMT -5
Well, Blyleven gets in before Tommy John, if anything. Blyleven's strikeouts alone, the ultimate individual accomplishment for a pitcher, put him way ahead of Tommy John.
Tommy John should probably go into the hall as a Pioneer for being successful after his surgery. But it's a crime that Blyleven isn't in.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Aug 2, 2007 13:18:42 GMT -5
Balls wants to screw over Jim Rice cause he was out of the game too soon, but reward Tommy John for sticking around forever.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 2, 2007 13:29:16 GMT -5
The reason Tommy John stuck around forever was because he was capable of pitching forever. He was still a MLB level pitcher well into his 40s.
TJ should be in because of wins.
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Post by grover on Aug 2, 2007 13:44:23 GMT -5
By that standard we better get the John Fracno HOF plaque carved out by next year! LOL!
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 2, 2007 13:46:30 GMT -5
Closers are different animals and are treated differently. Even Goose isn't in the HOF yet. There really isn't any standards for closers. But if Franco had 288 wins, he'd belong too.
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Post by Chris on Aug 9, 2007 11:22:44 GMT -5
I am no longer a proponent of Burt Blyleven getting into the Hall Of Fame. I think a player's level of whining should count against him...of course that would virtually eliminate the Goose from contention, but I'm willing to sacrifice Gossage for my agenda.
Blyleven was on local talk radio this morning citing his years in a "small market" as the reason he isn't in the Hall. Blyleven went as far as to say that even if he had the 13 more wins to put him at 300, he still probably wouldn't be in the Hall today because of his perceived "underexposure."
Sour Grapes, bitch. Kirby Puckett is in the Hall and he is arguably less deserving than Blyleven. Paul Molitor played in a small market for as long as Blyleven...he's in.
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Post by jwmcc on Aug 9, 2007 11:29:23 GMT -5
I agree, as I've said before on and off the board, there are coworkers at my job who have HOF votes who go out of their way to not vote for whiners like Goose, Blyleven, and for a long time Gary Carter. Jw
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 9, 2007 11:57:24 GMT -5
That's weak and a great argument that writers should not have any part of this process. A HOF vote should be based on what a player did on the field. Whether he whines or not should have nothing to do with it.
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Post by kingdzbws on Aug 9, 2007 11:57:37 GMT -5
John, are there any define criteria that voters must follow?? Obviously whingin isn't one of them, but are there any officially spelled out?
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Post by Chris on Aug 9, 2007 12:00:45 GMT -5
I would doubt there are official criteria...otherwise MacGwire would have got in.
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Post by mac0822 on Aug 15, 2007 7:31:59 GMT -5
With all this talk about Jim Rice, let's talk about a HOFer that is in with zero right to be. Phil Rizzuto. The guy's career is FAR from HOF material, yet Yankee blinders ignore it.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 15, 2007 8:04:27 GMT -5
He's not the worst player in the HOF by a longshot. But objectively, he wouldn't have my vote.
That said, I do believe he should be in the HOF as a broadcaster.
People can debate his fundamentals in the booth, but the fact that he lasted over 40 years and shaped the fandom of so many people has to count for something.
This man made baseball enjoyable for so many people--most of whom never saw him play.
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Post by mac0822 on Aug 15, 2007 8:08:32 GMT -5
Right. Same as if Jim Rice got in. He'd not be the worst player in the HOF either.
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 15, 2007 8:11:21 GMT -5
I'll give you that on Rice. I've been saying all along it depends on what standard you use for your vote. If you go by whether or not he was actually good enough to be considered one of the best ever--a dominant force in baseball--then no, he is not good enough. He's not in the elite category of the Ruths, DiMaggios, Williams' etc. He wasn't good enough, long enough.
But if you compare him to the lesser HOFers, notably Kirby Puckett, and if you use THAT standard, then yes, he belongs.
It's a question of what your standard is.
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Post by mac0822 on Aug 15, 2007 8:59:08 GMT -5
I pulled up Rizzuto's stats & was AMAZED.
.273 38 HR's 563 RBI's 1588 hits 877 runs scored 263 errors
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Who's standard makes that a HOFer? If he's a HOFer, so is Royce Clayton.
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 15, 2007 9:41:00 GMT -5
I guess defense got him in too. The general view was he was the cement that held the bricks together on those championship teams. Mazeroski was an even bigger joke.
Like I said, I wouldn't have voted for him as a player. Broadcaster yes, player no.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Aug 15, 2007 10:28:56 GMT -5
Macs forgetting that Ted Williams himself said flat-out that if Rizzuto played for Boston instead of New York all that time, all those flags would have went to Boston.
You guys will never understand the intangibles that put certain guys in the Hall over others. Its amusing to read over and over.
By the way, Balls, you're talking about him deserving votes for his cornpone announcing style, which was not respected at all outside of the Yankee booth, is the biggest homerism type joke on this board so far this year.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Aug 15, 2007 10:48:15 GMT -5
Funny thing is, even SABR-hound (and noted Bill James fluffer) Rob Neyer acknowledges that "Rizzuto being in the HOF is no joke, " and that the numbers don't tell the story for Rizzuto.
Using purely straight numbers to identify a HOFer is really very short-sighted, and is the mark of someone who doesn't really understand the game too well.
Numbers are the important thing, but Derek Jeter is a HOFer if he retires TODAY.
Flip.
Flop.
Flip.
Flop.
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Post by mac0822 on Aug 15, 2007 11:11:20 GMT -5
I was simply pointing out that MSB's chatter about "no important numbers" when it came to Rice's career only applies to Sox players.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 15, 2007 11:16:21 GMT -5
NOT using numbers to identify a HOFer is a sign that the guy is not a HOFer and a desperate attempt to make something out of nothing.
Jeter IS a HOFer, right now, based on the numbers.
Right now.
Jeter stands up well against the best shortstops who ever played the game. Right now.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Aug 15, 2007 11:45:30 GMT -5
lol
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Post by grover on Aug 15, 2007 12:56:22 GMT -5
The article shows that Rice wasn't as intimidating as you think he was. And again, he didn't accomplish any major milestones. He wasn't on top long enough, and was out of baseball at 36 years old--not because of any desire to have dignity, but because he couldn't hack it. Jeter's major milestones for MSB, not including postseason play, because he doesn't count the postseason as an individual effort. 2500 hits? No 200 HRs? No 1000 RBIs? No More strikeouts than RBIs/BBs & almost as many K's as runs? Sure. He's got a good average though, so obviously that's more than enough to put someone in the hall. Postseason doesn't count in your book, so what's putting him in the Hall if he 'was not good enough to go on'? Or, having a Yankee symbol on your hat would help also. It's amazing how Balls is so out of touch with the sport, and how stubborn he is to even see other's arguments, even when they are agreeing with him, or trying to just show him another angle without disputing his claim. He's so hellbent on being right it's comical. Balls cares not for the arguments that the writers give Rice, and how most of those arguments are wrong, and if that argument was applied to a Yankee he would have called the ACLU already.
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Post by mac0822 on Aug 15, 2007 12:58:31 GMT -5
Balls will point to Jeter's BA no doubt. If Jeter is a HOFer right now without taking the postseason into account, then so are Barry Larkin & Omar Vizquel.
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Post by grover on Aug 15, 2007 13:00:58 GMT -5
Well, see there's a problem: Barry Larkin & Omar Vizquel weren't Yankees.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 15, 2007 13:07:57 GMT -5
Jeter has 5 200 hit seasons already.
3 Gold Gloves. 8 All Star appearances.
A .317 lifetime average--61st all time.
95th on the all time runs scored list.
10 appearances in the top 10 in hits per season.
His stats, right now, are better than half the shortstops in the HOF.
Jeter has a lifetime batting average 20 points higher than Larkin. Larkin never had 200 hits in a season. Jeter has 2308 hits. Larkin, who played until he was 40, had 2340.
A case can be made for Larkin. But Jeter, right now, tops Larkin throughout his career.
Vizquel also never had a 200 hit season. Jeter's average is over 40 points higher than Vizquel.
Jeter has more than double Vizquel's HR total, and more RBI.
Vizquel also has a case for the HOF.
Vizquel is not in Jeter's league.
Jeter is a HOFer no matter what symbol is on his hat. But of course, if he has a Yankee symbol on his head, certain people feel the need to diminish him just to show they aren't marks.
To quote Tom. lol.
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Post by mac0822 on Aug 15, 2007 13:09:38 GMT -5
What about the fact that Vizquel may be the best defensive SS ever? Does that play a role? Doesn't he have over 2500 hits?
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Post by grover on Aug 15, 2007 13:14:04 GMT -5
What about the fact that Vizquel may be the best defensive SS ever? Does that play a role? Doesn't he have over 2500 hits? But was he a Yankee? No. Case closed. Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls? Right Balls?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 15, 2007 13:14:36 GMT -5
It matters. Vizquel has a case, and yes, he does have over 2500 hits. If anything, he was underrated throughout his career.
Vizquel compares very favorably to quite a few shortstops in the HOF.
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