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Post by Jason Giambi on Aug 15, 2007 14:23:34 GMT -5
Carl Crawford is deserving of the Hall as well.
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Post by grover on Aug 15, 2007 16:47:34 GMT -5
EVERY YANKEE EVER IS DESERVING OF THE HALL!!
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 15, 2007 19:43:09 GMT -5
Let's make up things that were never said and argue against them!!!
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Post by thecaptain15 on Aug 15, 2007 20:39:40 GMT -5
I hope every Yankee goes in the Hall as Yankees...
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Post by Chris on Aug 16, 2007 14:19:55 GMT -5
Tom is right. Although the last person on this board I would expect to give credit for intangibles, would be Tom. But he's right.
I am a big fan of intangibles when it comes to the estimation of a players' worth. Phil Rizzuto played an INTEGRAL part (that's the key) during baseball's greatest dynasty ever. Phil Rizzuto was not a Shane Spencer, Luis Vizcaino type player in that dynasty - he was amongst the team's major players. Aside from being an MVP and an MVP runner up, Rizzuto's role in that dynasty would compare to being part of the O'Neill, Posada, Brosius, Martinez contingent from the late 90s Yankees.
And the other thing is, the criteria for the Hall Of Fame isn't set in stone. It just isnt, otherwise Mark McGwire would be in. If you accept the unwritten rules that are in place for admittance to the HOF, then you must accept that interpretation of intangibles and potentially personality issues might affect one's admittance or denial. If Ozzie Smith had been the complete and utter asshole that Jim Rice is, he wouldn't have sniffed the Hall. Perhaps if Don Mattingly had an extreme hard luck story like that of Kirby Puckett, he might be in the hall. Phil Rizzuto was a beloved character, a solid ball player on the greatest dynasty of the greatest team in history and I suspect that the adoration he garnered as a broadcaster did MUCH to get him in the hall as a player - intangibles, pal! He was a HALL OF FAME CALIBER BASEBALL FIGURE when considering the entirety of his association with the game. Jim Rice was a fucking knucklehead who put up some phenomenal numbers for a good number of years...so yeah, Rice is arguably a HOF'er (which is an honor in it's own right), but in the totality of one's contributions to the game, Rice is a cocksucker with a bad attitude and some very good (not great) numbers.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 16, 2007 14:46:40 GMT -5
No doubt Rizzuto's role was key in his dynasty, but HOFer? O'Neill, Brosius, & Tino were all vital to the championships. None are HOFers, despite their intangibles.
Intangibles are an excuse to justify someone who doesn't deserve it.
Rizzuto SHOULD be in as a broadcaster.
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Post by grover on Aug 16, 2007 14:55:06 GMT -5
Intangibles are an excuse to justify someone who doesn't deserve it. So only non hall of famers have intangibles?
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Post by Chris on Aug 16, 2007 15:01:32 GMT -5
You might argue that he IS in as a broadcaster. Sure, maybe it's a bit of a slight on guys who got in solely on their accomplishments as a player, but truth be told, I'd much rather have Rizzuto in the hall as is, where it's pretty much unwritten and accepted that his admittance to the hall owes a lot the fan's adoration for his broadcasting...as opposed to him being simply in the Hall as a broadcaster, effectively dismissing him as a player. It's bad enough that most of us know him as a quirky funny little old man...that we actually have to be reminded by testimonials from guys who actually played with him, that he was once a young, tough, gritty, and accomplished ball player. It's kind of like if a young kid got to meet Yogi Berra today - that kid's impression of Yogi would be as this frail, kind, gentle old man...when in fact in his playing days Yogi was a intimidating, bad mother fucker.
Again, I think Rizzuto's admittance to the HOF is a function of his entire career associated with Major League baseball. But don't totally discount his worth as a player. He was, in fact, one of the better players on the best team ever (at least in terms of dominance over the rest of the league, and championships). I mean, it's not as though Joe Pepitone would have made it to the Hall Of Fame as a player if he had spent 25 years as a beloved Yankee broadcaster. Rizzuto DID bring some level of greatness to the field.
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Post by Chris on Aug 16, 2007 15:02:56 GMT -5
I think what he meant to imply was that, if you're without a doubt a HOF'er, no one ever talks about your intangibles.
No one ever mentions Babe Ruth's intangibles.
I don't totally agree, but I see his point.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Aug 16, 2007 15:08:39 GMT -5
The people that voted him in were not the fans, though. I know he said it had a lot to do with "you fans", but the people that voted him in were his contemporaries.
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Post by Chris on Aug 16, 2007 15:14:02 GMT -5
I realize that Justin. But isn't it reasonable to expect that the voters (the peers/contemporaries/the press) in some significant way feed off of the fans perception of a player?
I don't think that fans necessarily would consider a separation of the careers of someone like Rizzuto. That's my belief anyway - I think that the average fan who loved Rizzuto (even to the extent of not being alive when he played) loves him as a "Great Yankee" and not so much as a "Great Yankee Announcer" and a "Pretty Good Yankee Ballplayer." That's just what I think anyway. I don't think fans get as analytical as we sometimes do when discussing these things here.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 16, 2007 21:23:44 GMT -5
"So only non hall of famers have intangibles? "
Of course not. But intangibles are a lot more common than some of you make them out to be. And if you are not a HOFer without bringing them in, you should not be a HOFer.
Like Chris mentions--no one mentions intangibles for guys like Ruth, Cobb, Aaron and the like. Not that they didn't have them too, but it didn't matter. They were HOFers no matter what.
I would think the contemporaries of Rizzuto were also fans of his. Hell, I thought I read that Bill White was one of the people that influenced things.
By the way, is it POSSIBLE to go in the HOF as a player AND as a broadcaster/manager/owner separately? Or is it that once you're in, you're in?
Take a guy like Ripken. Say he manages a team to 10 World Champions over the next 20 years. He has a HOF managerial career. Could he get in again?
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Post by grover on Aug 16, 2007 21:37:14 GMT -5
Intangibles are not that common. Stop.
Sorry, but what fucking planet are you guys living on by saying that no one mentions Aaron's intangibles when he is lauded for showing courage as he neared Ruth's record.
Balls, you gush about how Ruth all the time, and...
You know, fuck it, I'm going to quit this board. Or at least, I'm going to sign off for a long while.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 17, 2007 6:26:08 GMT -5
Aaron gets into the HOF no matter what his intangibles are. So does Ruth.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Aug 17, 2007 6:52:57 GMT -5
Actually, I'm with Balls on this one point. Next to Ruth (and maybe including Ruth, given that Ruth didn't have to face curveballs and such) Aaron might be the greatest all-around hitter to ever play the game. No need to even bring up intangibles.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 17, 2007 7:19:25 GMT -5
I don't know if I would put Aaron next to Ruth. There are people like Ty Cobb and Ted Williams that might be considered ahead of Aaron. But one thing about Aaron was an unbelievable consistency over the decades he played. He only won one MVP (though he had more than one MVP level season). But year in and year out the man was consistently doing the job.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Aug 17, 2007 9:04:29 GMT -5
I don't think you can get in for more than one reason, this isn't the hollywood walk of fame or the rock n roll hall............
I'd say the best hitter was Williams, but that's an opinion, and I don't think you can ever settle that debate.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 17, 2007 9:30:16 GMT -5
Ruth had more power, and was within 2 points of his average. Williams never had a 200 hit season, which shocked me. He never hit 100 RBI after the age of 32. That also surprised me.
Ruth hit over .320 in 13 seasons. Williams did it 13 times too.
Averagewise, the two were fairly even. Both were very consistent. Ruth lost his first 5 years due to pitching. He also missed a good chunk of 1925 due to either injury or suspension (or both) I forget.
I give it to Ruth because the average is so close, and the power is off the hook.
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Post by mac0822 on Aug 17, 2007 9:43:08 GMT -5
Babe Ruth was the most dominant athlete of all time & it's not even close.
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Post by Chris on Aug 17, 2007 9:45:46 GMT -5
And you know what, discounting the allegations that Ruth faced inferior pitching compared to Aaron, when Ruth said if he wanted to hit singles he could have hit .600 ... I believe him. I don't know why, Yo, but I do!
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Post by 9 on Aug 17, 2007 9:50:35 GMT -5
The man (Ruth) did something that's not even remotely possible today: outhomer entire TEAMS.
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Post by Domi on Aug 17, 2007 9:53:11 GMT -5
What about the fact that Vizquel may be the best defensive SS ever? Does that play a role? Doesn't he have over 2500 hits? Ozzie Smith's career FRAR (fielding runs above replacement): 838 Omar Vizquel's FRAR: 601 Ozzie Smith's career WARP3 (includes a fielding component): 135.5 Omar Vizquel's career WARP3: 98.2
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Post by mac0822 on Aug 17, 2007 9:54:11 GMT -5
Who cares what pitching Ruth faced. If it was so easy to hit, how come he did it SO much better than everyone else?
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Post by Chris on Aug 17, 2007 9:57:19 GMT -5
I don't know why that stat has never really impressed me (and there's a lot to be impressed about when it comes to Babe Ruth). All that tells me is aside from Ruth, there wasn't a lot of power in baseball at that time. If Ruth hit 50+ HRs one season, 50 homers are 50 homers ... I'm not sure I understand why those 50 homers become so much more impressive because a collection of other guys didn't hit that combined. It's still 50 homeruns.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 17, 2007 10:09:56 GMT -5
There was the beginnings of a power spurt when Ruth changed the game. I'm pretty sure they changed the ball to make it easier to go out, which helped the players. But Ruth was doubling the HR production of the second place guy in some years.
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Post by Chris on Aug 17, 2007 10:33:28 GMT -5
I wonder who was a better hitter. Babe Ruth or Joe Don Baker aka "The Whammer"
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Post by 9 on Aug 17, 2007 10:48:09 GMT -5
It's hard to say. Ruth never faced Roy Hobbs.
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Post by Chris on Aug 17, 2007 13:50:09 GMT -5
The best there ever was!
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 26, 2007 19:32:43 GMT -5
Well, its that time of year again. Feel free to ingratiate us with your picks.
I go Blyleven, Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, and Goose Gossage, even though he makes it hard with all his blubbering and whining about it. I want to pick Jack Morris, but....ah, Hell with it, its my ballot. Jack Morris. I really like Alan Trammell, but I will leave my ballot as is.
As to McGwire, I need to think about it. I am leaning no. In fact, its a no.
NEW YORK -- Tim Raines and David Justice head 11 first-time candidates on the baseball writers' 2008 Hall of Fame ballot, joining Mark McGwire, Rich Gossage, Jim Rice and 11 other holdovers.
McGwire, his candidacy hurt by suspicions of steroids use, was selected on just 23.5 percent of ballots when he was eligible for the first time in 2007.
When Cal Ripken Jr. and Tony Gwynn were elected in January, Gossage fell 21 votes shy of the necessary 75 percent and Rice was 63 votes short.
Rice is on the ballot for the 14th time and Gossage for the ninth. Players can be on the Baseball Writers' Association of America ballot for up to 15 years.
Gossage's percentage increased from 64.6 in 2006 to 71.2 in 2007, while Rice's declined from 64.6 to 63.5. The highest percentage for a player who wasn't elected in a later year was 63.4 by Gil Hodges in 1983, his final time on the ballot.
Raines was a seven-time All-Star who played 23 seasons and batted .294 with 2,605 hits and 808 steals, fifth on the career list. He was the 1986 NL batting champion.
Justice was the 1990 NL Rookie of the Year and a three-time All-Star. He had a .279 average, 305 homers and 1,017 RBIs in 14 seasons.
Brady Anderson, Rod Beck, Shawon Dunston, Chuck Finley, Travis Fryman, Chuck Knoblauch, Robb Nen, Jose Rijo and Todd Stottlemyre also are first-time candidates. The five-year waiting rule was waived for Beck, who died June 23.
Other holdovers (with their 2007 vote percentages) include Andre Dawson (56.7), Bert Blyleven (47.7), Lee Smith (39.8), Jack Morris 202 (37.1), Tommy John (22.9), Dave Concepcion (13.6), Alan Trammell (13.4), Dave Parker (11.4), Don Mattingly (9.9), Dale Murphy (9.2) and Harold Baines (5.3).
Rijo retired after the 1995 season and appeared on the 2001 Hall ballot, when he received one vote. He then returned to the major leagues and pitched for Cincinnati in 2001 and 2002, making him eligible to go back on the ballot.
Reporters who have been in the BBWAA for 10 or more consecutive years are eligible to vote, and the totals will be announced Jan. 8. Rickey Henderson tops the players who will be eligible for the first time on the 2009 ballot.
Results of balloting for managers, umpires and executives by the newly reconstituted Veterans Committee will be announced Dec. 3 at the winter meetings.
Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press
2008 Hall of Fame ballot Players on this year's ballot for the Baseball Hall of Fame. Election results will be announced Jan. 8, 2008:
• Brady Anderson • Harold Baines • Rod Beck • Bert Blyleven • Dave Concepcion • Andre Dawson • Shawon Dunston • Chuck Finley • Travis Fryman • Rich "Goose" Gossage • Tommy John • David Justice • Chuck Knoblauch • Don Mattingly • Mark McGwire • Jack Morris • Dale Murphy • Robb Nen • Dave Parker • Tim Raines • Jim Rice • Jose Rijo • Lee Smith • Todd Stottlemyre • Alan Trammell
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 26, 2007 20:35:34 GMT -5
Gossage, Blyleven, Rice and Morris....
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