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Post by grover on Oct 17, 2007 20:31:45 GMT -5
Not if you are basically taking money from other teams for the purpose of payroll. If these teams don't put that luxury tax money into their payroll, then they shouldn't be getting it. And regarding a salary cap, like you said, if you purchase a baseball team, you can choose to do what you want with any monies coming your way. No one should stop you from putting money into your team as you see fit. I agree with most of that. Luxury tax should be put back into the team, and chances are it is, because we'd see a stink if it wasn't. Still, this isn't Football and teams who don't draw as much income as larger clubs can't be expected to be run as other clubs. As much as the Gil Meche deal sucks, that was the Royals way to telling everyone they are not going to play it cheap anymore. That's them doing exactly what you(Balls) say they should do. Why Gil Meche you say? Who else in their right mind is going to go to KC after the way they've done business the last decade? They have a slew of young, good prospects who will set that team straight if they pan out. If they convince free agents that they are not going to be slouches, we might see them pop up th way we saw the Tigers emerge last season. Terrible deal, sure, but probably the only one they could make.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 17, 2007 22:04:03 GMT -5
Actually, it was a very stupid deal by the Royals, and it probably screwed them over for years to come. Now, assholes like Gil Meche are getting $11 million a year, so real players will get more.
Making a deal for the sake of making a deal doesn't work.
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Post by jwmcc on Oct 17, 2007 23:06:12 GMT -5
"Actually, it was a very stupid deal by the Royals, and it probably screwed them over for years to come. Now, assholes like Gil Meche are getting $11 million a year, so real players will get more.
Making a deal for the sake of making a deal doesn't work."
According to who, you?
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 17, 2007 23:08:55 GMT -5
Andy Pettitte - 4.05 ERA, 16 million dollars
Gil Meche 3.67 ERA, 11 million dollars
Eh...
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Post by grover on Oct 17, 2007 23:46:21 GMT -5
Just think how he'd do if the Royals were good?
Either way, they are trying to shake that stigma. What are they supposed to do, wait until the perfect deal comes around? I think they think they spent too much time running things wrong.
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Post by bernie51williams on Oct 18, 2007 0:30:21 GMT -5
yeah the Rockies have had a great run, hopefully they can defeat the Indians in the WS, but that long ass lay off may hurt them.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 6:11:44 GMT -5
John, please tell me how spending $11 million for 5 years on a #5 starter has ever turned a loser team into a winning team.
How would that make good players actually want to join the team?
All KC accomplished was setting a new standard for crap, and it paved the way for more stupid deals, like Ted Lilly getting $10 million per.
Meche had a fluke year. And before you annoint him a Cy Young, not unlike other players that suck, his stats were bolstered by a good April. Meche pitched incredible in April, mediocre in May and June, shitty in July and August, and excellent in September. Not exactly the consistent pitcher you would want.
The guy sucks. Cream rises to the top. Shit sinks. Gil Meche stinks, which is probably why Tom likes him.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 18, 2007 7:05:29 GMT -5
Not for nothing, Gil Meche is still not 30 years old. Not that he is going to blossom into Hoss Radbourne or anything, but the Royals may have known what they are doing. Sorry, Balls, the numbers do not lie. Forgetting the win loss difference (keep in mind the team he shared the field with has a payroll a fifth of the one Pettitte shared the field with) - he had a better season than the 16 Million Dollar Man.
Meche may not be a staff leader on many staffs, but to call him a "5th starter" is absolutely absurd.
Oh, and when the #1 pitcher on a team is pitching to an ERA in the mid 3s, players WILL consider joining that team, especially when they are STOCKED with young studs on the cusp like the Royals are. But you would not know that, you are too busy watching YES to get your baseball news.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 7:28:00 GMT -5
Calling him a 5th starter is absurd?
The guy had a career YEAR. That doesn't change that he stinks and that no one with a brain would be fooled by it.
This is the first time in his career he pitched more than 187 innings. This is the first full season he had an ERA under 4.48.
Numbers don't lie. He's a #5 starter that had a career year.
If you would rather have Meche than Pettitte, you are a bigger idiot than previously thought. And you are a big idiot.
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Post by jwmcc on Oct 18, 2007 7:30:32 GMT -5
Hoss Radbourne references=always funny.
Pitching Breakdown by month: Meche April 2-1, 2.18, .283 OBA May 1-3 3.93, .250 June 2-2, 3.98 .273 July 2-2 4.89 .262 August 0-4 4.50, .286 September 2-1, 2.67, .220
16 Million dollar man: April 1-1 3.00 .265 May 2-3 2.16, .266 June 1-1, 4.76 .285 July 2-2, 6.96 .348 August 6-0 2.36, .230 September 3-2 5.86 .324
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 18, 2007 7:37:30 GMT -5
This is the first time in his career he pitched more than 187 innings. This is the first full season he had an ERA under 4.48
And this was also the first time in his seven year career he had a losing record. For all the crap you are piling on the guy, he has been a winner. And AGAIN, he does not turn 30 until the end of next season. For all you know (and that is certainly not much) he may be blossoming.
Its funny how morons like you whine that Andy Phillips deserves a shot cause he's still developing at close to 30, but Gil Meche isn't.
Seems to me the Royals knew what they were doing.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 7:39:46 GMT -5
If the Royals knew what they were doing, they would have realized that they could have signed a bum like Meche for much less.
The record means almost nothing. It all depends on the offense of the team. Meche had a good year, but that doesn't change that he's a shit pitcher.
One fluke year doesn't change a thing.
And who says I'm a fan of Andy Phillips? No wonder you have no clue on baseball.
Then again, you think Randy Johnson and his 5.00 ERA was NOT a bust.
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Post by grover on Oct 18, 2007 9:26:33 GMT -5
Balls, you're forgetting one thing: It's KC. Who says they could have gotten a guy like Meche for less? Name me a big time free agents that's gone there? Name me a mid-level free agents that's gone there? You can't. They know they've been doing things wrong, and the only way they are going to show that they are not going to be cheap asses anymore is to spend. The thing is, if no one accepts the offers, how can they shake that stigma? Just because the money is on the table doesn't mean a person is going to go to that team.
KC is hoping someone will see that deal and go 'Hey, looks like they want to open the wallet now' and join to help the team grow the way Pudge did with the Tigers. It's a shit deal, but one they had to make.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 9:32:14 GMT -5
But Grover--I realize it's KC. But to throw top dollar at a guy like that only bolsters the salaries of everyone else, and it guarantees that you will NEVER be able to afford a star.
The Yankees got Mussina for the same money. There are other ways to show you aren't cheap. For example, re-sign your OWN free agents. Their payroll is now higher than Cleveland's, and the difference is Gil Meche.
Pudge was a HUGE signing for the Tigers, but they paid fair market value--they didn't overpay. And he is a FAR bigger name than Gil Meche.
Now, the Royals are going to cry poverty again and Gil Meche will be the reason.
It's not that going out and signing someone was the bad thing--but the Royals picked the wrong guy.
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Post by mac0822 on Oct 18, 2007 10:04:01 GMT -5
LOL at MSB whining about Payroll. Gil fucking Meche is not why salaries are out of control you idiot.
Also, one bad contract (as you call it) is going to ruin them? Yet you see no problem with the current financial system? The Yanks & Sox have 5+ bad contracts of that size PER TEAM & they are playoff teams. The Royals have ONE & he's not even a bad pitcher.
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Post by kingdzbws on Oct 18, 2007 10:09:14 GMT -5
Walkman Wagner said:
Yes, him. THE ARBITOR OF ALL THAT IS RIGHT.
BOW DOWN INFIDEL! BOW DOWN!!
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 10:26:46 GMT -5
Actually Mac, Gil Meche is a HUGE reasons salaries are out of control. When a guy like that, who is at best, a #4 guy, gets a 5 year, $55 million deal, then everyone at or above his level is worth at least that. It's a domino effect. Meche isn't the first example of a stupid team raising salaries with one stupid deal, but he is the poster boy from last year.
And he IS a bad pitcher.
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Post by grover on Oct 18, 2007 10:46:34 GMT -5
The Yankees got Mussina for cheaper because he took cheaper to come here to win. The Mets, as well as other teams, offered him more money, and he turned it down to come to a team who he thought was in the best chance to win. That just proves my point: Just because the money is on the table doesn't mean it's going to attract every free agent.
Think about it: If KC offerers you 20 mil over 5 years to play for them, but San Fran offerers you 18 mil over 5, where are you going to spend what could be half of your career? Gil Meche was probably the only guy who took any offer they gave out. I'm sure players either said no thanks or asked for even more money to go play there.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 11:21:53 GMT -5
But Gil Meche SUCKS. The only message KC sent out was that they are stupid, and given their past history of penny pinching, they now won't have the money to sign these up and comers they have because their resources were wasted on Gil Meche.
You never gain anything by adding a pitcher that other teams wouldn't want for free.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Oct 18, 2007 11:25:12 GMT -5
A. He doesn't Suck, he pitched better than Mussina B. KC has no credibility, just like Tampa and a few other teams. You need to start small. It's what got the ball rolling in AZ, when Johnson signed there.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 18, 2007 11:27:14 GMT -5
But Gil Meche SUCKS
Yeah, he sucks so much that he has a winning record in a 7 year career, and had an ERA in the mid 3's last season, totally justifying his anointed role as leader of KC's young staff.
He is also under 30 years old, so his best years may be yet to come. Oh, and he had a better year than Andy Pettitte last year, cause as you said, wins and losses mean nothing.
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Post by Domi on Oct 18, 2007 11:29:32 GMT -5
Gil Meche's ERA+ was 130 (top 10 in AL), not bad for someone who "sucks".
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Post by mac0822 on Oct 18, 2007 12:09:05 GMT -5
I don't understand MSB's obsession with Gil Meche. The guy is not that bad. Did I do a double take when I heard about his contract? FUCK YA. I also did a double take when I heard the figures on Jason Giambi's, Johnny Damon's & JD Drew's contract. To say the fucking Royals have even a fraction of blame for the joke salaries now - is borderline retarded.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 12:14:32 GMT -5
Gil Meche is the poster boy for the stupid contracts from the 2006 offseason. Not that JD Drew isn't in the same class, but Drew at least did something right.
Meche had one good year. That doesn't change that he sucks. Hell, Carlos Pena had a good year too. That doesn't change a thing.
Big fucking deal that he's under 30 years old. That just means he sucks at a younger age.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Oct 18, 2007 12:17:09 GMT -5
Meche is a decent pitcher and if he was a Yankee he'd have 15+ wins easy. He is not a bad pitcher........Balls I don't know where your logic is...
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 12:18:17 GMT -5
THIS YEAR. A FLUKE YEAR. The guy has done absolutely nothing in the majors but suck ass before this year. And you think he's decent?
How many Carl Pavanos and Jaret Wrights have to come along before you recognize one?
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 18, 2007 12:38:21 GMT -5
The guy has done absolutely nothing in the majors but suck ass before this year. And you think he's decent?
Except have a winning record every single year that he had played.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 12:45:51 GMT -5
And again, you twit, the wins were not due to him, they were due to run support.
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Post by grover on Oct 18, 2007 12:47:22 GMT -5
Balls, don't you get it? This is the only deal KC could make! You can't win on youth alone. You need a mix of vets and youth, which is what the tigers did last year, what the White Sox did the year before, which is what the Rockies and Indians are doing this year.
Please, give me one deal the Royals could have made last offseason to turn things around? Who could they have grabbed that wanted to go there? Honestly, you are ignoring most details as usual. Not every player is going to go to a place for money. It's not like KC had the prefect deals for all the key free agents. Seriously, who could the Royals have gotten last year at a decent price that actually wanted to go there?
Not making this deal means another year with potential free agents going "they are not willing to spend, I'm not going there" which means another year being the exact same team you say they shouldn't be. They have some decent young talent, and the time to act is now, not sitting around for the perfect deal to come.
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Post by kingdzbws on Oct 18, 2007 12:57:26 GMT -5
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