MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 12:58:49 GMT -5
Grover, I understand your point. But you need to get mine. Overpaying for a shitty pitcher does NOT do KC good. You used the Pudge signing by Detroit as an example before. THAT was much different.
You do need vets and youth. I get that too. But Gil Meche is not that veteran winner that you need. If Gil Meche is your best pitcher, you will never be above .500.
$55 million for FIVE YEARS for a crap pitcher is a stupid way to make a point, and that's all they did--show the world that they were stupid. Well, they did more than that. They priced themselves out of the market for free agents that are actually good.
The big difference between what the Tigers did and the Royals is that the Tigers signed a real big name (and for just one year). The Royals signed a nobody whose biggest claim to fame is his contract.
Hell, they could have got Lilly for less money than that, and Lilly is a better pitcher.
It will be hard to come up with other free agents they could have signed because I don't remember last year's group and what they signed for. But if Gil Meche is the best you can get, you're better off keeping your money and saving it for the future.
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Post by grover on Oct 18, 2007 13:10:02 GMT -5
But would Lilly have gone there?
If you're Lilly, where are you going? To KC or Chicago who took the rubberband off the roll and got guys like Pinella and Sorinao?
Gil Meche was the best they can get, and it's going to hopefully get the ball moving in the right direction for them. If you think the Royals should have saved their money then you shouldn't be whining about teams not spending. The Royals want to win, and thought they were on track in 04 before injuries ravaged the team. Now they want to get back there, and this is the penance they have to suffer though in order to get back to real competition: paying Gil Meche what they gave him. It may not prove to be the same impact deal a what the Tigers got with Pudge, but if it convinces someone this year to come over who wouldn't, then it was worth it.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 13:16:32 GMT -5
I don't know if Lilly would have gone there, but he's a better pitcher who signed for less money.
If you are looking at teams, Gil Meche is not going to be a recruiting tool. If winning is your concern, KC is not the place to go, more so now that they HAVE Meche because a team with limited resources is now has about 1/6th of their payroll going to a pitcher who isn't that good.
KC actually has a bigger payroll than Cleveland.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 18, 2007 13:23:20 GMT -5
don't know if Lilly would have gone there, but he's a better pitcher who signed for less money.
Meche - career ERA 4.44
Lilly career ERA 4.46
They have both averaged 12 wins a season in their careers.
Eh...
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Post by grover on Oct 18, 2007 13:32:18 GMT -5
Yeah, exactly, you don't know. We do.
It was a shit deal, and if I'm not mistaken, it was signed toward the end of free agency, because I remember Michael Kay going off on it on his radio show, calling it a capper to a retarded offseason. So, chances are, that's all they were left with. If this gets some more free agents looking their way, the to them, it was worth it. If not, well, we can't say shit, because the Yankees make deals like that on a regular basis. Hell, we run out and double the next team's bid as soon as Boston says they are interested. Who are we to talk?
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Post by kingdzbws on Oct 18, 2007 13:34:18 GMT -5
ESPN says that Meche gets 7.4. Was the rest signing money?
Mike Sweeney for a guy who's broken 100rbis only twice in his career get 11mil Odalis Perez who hasn't has a winning record since 04, and is arguably not even starter material gets 7.75m (but I think the Dodgers signed him to that. Still the Royals traded for him)
I think both sides are in the right. The Royals ARE trying, BUT I think their GM and scouting is for shit, so they've chosen poorly. Lilly wouldn't have been any different.Still, they have to keep trying, so I can only fault them for poor decisions.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 18, 2007 13:38:08 GMT -5
In 3 years if Meche continues to lead the staff (and winning records, which was his past habit, and a sub 3.5 ERA will do that) then 11 million per will be a bargain.
I find it amusing that when Laura drafts Ted Lilly in our fantasy league he's "the worst pitcher in baseball" pretty much according to Balls, but now he's better than Gil Meche (despite the sad fact that Meche has a better career ERA and has had ONLY ONE GOOD YEAR, as Balls will tell ya)
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 13:51:39 GMT -5
Lilly is a lefty, but ignoring that, then the Royals spent $15 million more on essentially the same guy. Yes, if Meche pitches like he did THIS year for the life of the contract, it will turn out to be a reverse Giambi--a guy doing better than what he was signed to do. But at this point, he had one good year in his career, and he's not that goo. Not saying Ted Lilly is a great pitcher, and hardly one worthy of being on a fantasy team, but neither is Meche. Marc--just looked up his 2007, and you're right. It was $7.4 million, which means that Meche will be getting $47.6 million over the next 4 seasons. I'm not sure WHEN that deal was signed, but again, how much competition could there have been for Gil Meche? Meche signed on December 7. cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9856991$11 million next 2 seasons, $12 million the final 2, give or take a few hundred thousand. The contract was ripped by the media for good reason.
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Post by mac0822 on Oct 18, 2007 13:52:34 GMT -5
Lilly has a worse ERA even with a season in that shitty National League. Ya know - the league that should have their teams contracted because they didn't sign guys like Jason Giambi & JD Drew.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 18, 2007 13:53:52 GMT -5
And the media has been proven wrong on many an occassion. Last few years notwithstanding, does the headline, "CLUELESS JOE" ring a bell?
Meche did a bang-up job, all for NY Yankee mop-up middle reliever money this year.
Sorry I proved you wrong with facts on your "Lilly is better than Meche" attempt.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 13:56:57 GMT -5
Again, Meche had a fluke year. If you think signing a guy with a career ERA in the mid 4s for 5 years and $55 million is a good idea, then never rip on the Yankees again, and apply for Theo Epstein's job.
I wouldn't want Meche on the Yankees for league minimum.
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Post by grover on Oct 18, 2007 14:00:22 GMT -5
Rightfully so Balls, but the thing is you are going under the assumption that KC had the pick of the fucking litter and chose Meche, while those who realize how the game works knows most players worth a fart would stay away from KC unless they are shelling out tons of cash.
If KC did that, you would have shit yourself talking about all the bad contracts, yet if they didn't, you'd complain about how they don't spend.
Seriously, give it up. I just asked you where you would go if you were Lilly and the question that popped in your head was "I don't know if they could have gotten Lilly" which shows you how oblivious you are to the reasoning behind players motives. It's obvious KC could have gotten Lilly for less. Know why they didn't? Because Lilly didn't want to fucking go to KC!!!! Know why? Because no one does!! But, if this works out like they hope it does, then good for them.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 18, 2007 14:00:53 GMT -5
Fancy that, a "fluke year" in the hard-hitting American League!
Oh, and to say nothing about a "fluke year" coming from a guy who had never had more losses than wins in his major league career. Oh, and is under 30.
Royals may have pulled off quite the astute move.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 14:09:22 GMT -5
And again, he never had an ERA under 4.45 either. You really have no clue about how to judge pitching.
You really should be a GM for the Red Sox. They'd be in last place for decades.
And Grover, you also need to get it through your head that I get your point. It's not a very good reasoning to sign Meche though. You don't just spend $55 million on a shit pitcher to make a statement. They can get a guy with a 4.50 ERA and a history of injury for a lot less than that.
Yeah, he had a fluke year, but to justify that contract, he will have to repeat it 4 more times.
But that won't change that the deal was stupid, and rightfully ripped by everyone not named Tom.
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Post by kingdzbws on Oct 18, 2007 14:28:05 GMT -5
But Balls, do you get it that Grover is also saying that THEY COULD NOT lure anyone else better, cheaper, healthier, whatever, and in the end, as poor of a decision this may have been, it was still the best they could do. They HAD to do it.
And if they'd passed on him and gotten nothing in December, you woulda ripped them even more.
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Post by grover on Oct 18, 2007 14:28:29 GMT -5
I know Balls, but who? Who's going to go to them?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 15:00:40 GMT -5
Marc--if you can't lure someone better than Meche (or at least pay Meche much less), then you have to let Meche go and save that money and commitment for someone better at another time.
Seriously, if you are the GM of the Royals, with the allegedly limited resources, would YOU waste that kind of money on Meche?
If they were geniuses, they would try to trade him this offseason. Find a sucker team to take on that contract.
Grover--it's hard to really answer your question without getting a list of free agents and going through them. They would have to wait for someone like Pudge. A guy looking for a short term deal to rebuild his reputation and status.
A free agent who has been good in the past, but had a terrible year (or one that is bad for him). That free agent would likely not be touched by bigger teams, who want the true talent, but would be a good match for a team trying to show something.
That was Pudge when he signed with Detroit.
If there is no one like that, then they should save their money and NOT do something stupid like what they did with Meche.
Pudge wasn't hardly bad when he signed with Detroit, but his age, combined with less production than he had before, may have turned off a lot of teams and opened the door for Detroit, who OBVIOUSLY told him the right things.
Andruw Jones is someone that a team like that should look at. He's coming off a terrible year--especially for him. Though someone like Tom might look at 26 HR and 94 RBI as good, he would ignore the .222 average, the .312 OBP, the 138 Ks, the 100 point drop in SLG, and the like. But people who actually pay attention to more than power (which also declined), might see the potential in Jones.
Could a team like the Royals compete for a guy like Jones? Possibly. Jones still plays excellent defense, and his bad year might allow for a bargain and/or shorter contract.
Not to mention, he brings a veteran presence, he's still 30 years old, and plays good defense.
I wouldn't want him anywhere near the Yankees, but a team like the Royals could probably use a guy like that.
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Post by mac0822 on Oct 18, 2007 15:09:19 GMT -5
If JD Drew can get 5/70, Jones is still worth 100 million. Good luck KC!
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Post by grover on Oct 18, 2007 15:10:36 GMT -5
Right, and if the Royals didn't show everyone they are willing to spend cash by singing Meche, they wouldn't have a shot at a guy like Jones. It's not Meche's numbers that will lure people, it's the contract.
What remains to be seen is if the Royals follow this up by actually making good singings.
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Post by kingdzbws on Oct 18, 2007 15:21:54 GMT -5
>>>>>.....then you have to let Meche go and save that money and commitment for someone better at another time.
But when they pocket money, they get ripped for not even trying.
Grover is on it. It's not Meche's numbers that will lure people, it's the contract. At least they showed they're willing to try.
As they say, It is better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 18, 2007 15:23:29 GMT -5
Meche threw 216 innings for the Royals this year, and led the staff across the board. He bought along much needed stability. You dont bring in Meche, who throws those innings?
Great work by KC, and at 7 million this year, a bargain in todays game. By all signs, he can step up next year.
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Post by grover on Oct 18, 2007 15:27:14 GMT -5
Also, we don't know it's a fluke year until years down the line. What if he found his footing?
I hope so for Baseball's sake. It would be good for the game if the Royals stop acting like assholes and do what they can to get good again.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Oct 18, 2007 15:28:45 GMT -5
Tom stop trying to prove Balls wrong with facts..you know that doesn't work....
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Post by Jason Giambi on Oct 18, 2007 15:41:05 GMT -5
Yeah, because Santana will sign with the Royals vs another team. Balls, give it up, they had no credibility and what, 12 + losing seasons. If you don't show movement, no one will go there. Same goes for Pittsburgh and Tampa.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 15:48:16 GMT -5
Mac--your point is taken, but what team in their right mind would pay Jones $100 million? Any team that would do that is stupid.
Grover--JONES could be the first guy too. Now that they have wasted all that money on Meche, there may not be enough FOR Jones.
But Jones is that statement. Meche just says the Royals are stupid.
And Tom, again this whole concept of a fluke year seems to be beyond you. Look up the word fluke.
Pete--that's not movement. That's stupidity.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Oct 18, 2007 15:53:07 GMT -5
If Meche had those numbers as a Yankee, Balls would be calling for a Cy Young award...
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 18, 2007 16:18:03 GMT -5
Really? Give an example of anyone with Meche's numbers that I've wanted to get a Cy Young, Yankee or otherwise.
And if the Yankees were dumb enough to sign Meche, I would have hated the deal, just like I hated Wright and Pavano.
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Post by elliejay21 on Oct 22, 2007 3:24:03 GMT -5
Balls, you are comparing apples and oranges... Meche came of age on a Seattle team that was declining into shit. His first full season was '03 & he had a winning record every year, going up against the teams of the AL West who HIT the ball... the numbers of guys coming out of the NL East have a totally different meaning.
Lilly would not have gone to KC... he wanted to play for a contender & going to the Cubbies with Piniella was aperfect match. He earned the 2 spot in Chicago & I was surprised and disappointed by his October performance, but then again, that utter collapse was a team effort.
Oh, and I am SO rooting for the Rockies... was hoping they'd be beating Cleveland, but I DEFINITELY want them to beat Boston!
I told Dave when the postseason started, that I thought it would be good for baseball to see the Rockies make some noise.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 22, 2007 5:57:44 GMT -5
Laura--most pitchers will do better in the NL Central than in the AL. And Lilly would have gone anywhere for the money he got.
I don't think anyone on this board aside from Mac will be rooting for the Red Sox. Maybe Tom.
That said, I don't think the Rockies have a shot.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 22, 2007 7:29:42 GMT -5
I'm rooting for the Rockies, but nice try.
Rockies will do fine.
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