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Post by IronHorse4 on May 7, 2009 13:48:59 GMT -5
Really? He would have stayed home and left $45 million (minus the $7 million or so that he will lose because of this) on the table? You think he gives a shit about legacy? Honestly?
For my money, he's the best right-handed hitter I've EVER seen. Better than A-Rod. Probably the best since Hank Aaron. Though that is a debate for another time, and not a winning one either way.
ETA: I think you're probably right that he found out recently. I think I'm confusing it with football, where they know well ahead of the suspension.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 7, 2009 13:56:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I read somewhere that while they are braced for a boom coming, its not too long before.
You are correct about the money he would have left on the table, but he still has more money then he will ever need. From all accounts Manny is "sensitive' and his legacy probably IS important to him.
Funny you mention the Manny / Aaron comparison, as a couple of us had that very discussion at lunch a while ago.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 7, 2009 14:05:55 GMT -5
We have our answer--Aaron.
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Post by ajfreakz on May 7, 2009 19:46:23 GMT -5
..here is a good friend of mine who is a sox fans.. response to my question i sent her on facebook..
Anthony Kalogrides In your opinion are the sox 04 & 07 championships as tainted as the Yankees run in the mid 90's & 2000...
Lauren Not at all. Why? Because Manny currently tested positive for steroids. He's on the Dodgers now, babe, not the Sox and he didn't test positive before. No offense but I think the Yankees fans sound desperate and dumb as hell today, grasping for a connection. Sorry.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME.. WOW
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Post by Jason Giambi on May 7, 2009 20:49:52 GMT -5
yeah, once they started testing, he figured he'd start.
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Post by Chris on May 8, 2009 0:44:39 GMT -5
I can't remember who said it today....it may have been an on-air interview with Mike Scioscia....yeah that was it.....Mike Scioscia, who has absolutely no motivation to defend Manny Ramirez, suggested that some (not all) guys may be talked into taking substances and convinced that these are passable substances, not part of the banned list. Scioscia suggested that any player considering taking anything from an injection to a vitamin ought to take it to the team's trainer for a consult.
Now, while I don't buy Sheffield's malarky excuse that he believed ONLY injections out of a hypodermic needle counted as steroids....I might be able to be convinced that if there were anyone completely aloof and dopey enough to be ignorantly duped into taking roids with no intended malice, it would be Manny.
I'm not giving Manny a pass....I'm just saying that Manny doesn't strike me as being intelligent enough to be as calculatingly sneaky as a Canseco, Bonds, or McGwire.
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Post by Chris on May 8, 2009 1:00:30 GMT -5
I wonder what the Dodgers are going to do about their current "Mannywood" promotion:
2 Field Level seats in the "Mannywood" section and two "Mannywood" t-shirts for $99.
"Mannywood" t-shirts? This screams for a Bald Vinny creation!
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Post by Lindsey on May 8, 2009 7:37:15 GMT -5
See thats what is striking me. That manny just seems so damn stupid. Like... Mcguire, bonds, ok... manny... i just dont know. I find it easy to believe what he's saying; sadly.
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Post by mac0822 on May 8, 2009 9:24:35 GMT -5
Manny has been getting BETTER with age. To me, that's game, set, match. NEVER in the history of the world has a player got better as they got to their mid/late 30's until the roiders started doing it.
He was roiding with Boston, he was roiding with LA. Hell, he was probalby roiding in HS. I totally believe AROD was roiding in HS too.
WHY WOULDN'T THEY ROID? I KNOW I WOULD IF I HAD $100'S OF MILLIONS BEING THROWN AT ME.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 8, 2009 9:34:22 GMT -5
Assuming it is possible to stop the roids and get your health back, I can understand why anyone would juice for that kind of money.
They need to be harsher, and force all contracts to have clauses that state that at any point, if someone tests positive for roids, even if it's before the contract was signed, the contract is voided.
The Dodgers should have the right to tell many to buzz off. They can choose NOT to do that, but they should have the option.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 8, 2009 9:40:02 GMT -5
Sorry, Dodgers do not WANT him to buzz off. They cant wait to get him back.
Even the Sheff excuse would not fly for him, as this thing he was taking is an injection thing.
He's pretty much nailed. He is not even making an appeal. Another legacy in the can.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 8, 2009 9:49:41 GMT -5
I agree. The Dodgers just don't give a shit. But while they DO want him back, if they didn't, they should have the out.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 8, 2009 12:28:36 GMT -5
I wonder what the Dodgers are going to do about their current "Mannywood" promotion:
2 Field Level seats in the "Mannywood" section and two "Mannywood" t-shirts for $99.
Read in todays paper, during my lunchtime repaste, that the "Mannywood" promotions have been "suspended"
Also read Tom Lasorda's bluster, emphatically calling this a tragedy, and earmarking Manny as the "most popular Dodger since the team left Brooklyn."
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Post by Chris on May 8, 2009 13:24:42 GMT -5
"Also read Tom Lasorda's bluster, emphatically calling this a tragedy, and earmarking Manny as the "most popular Dodger since the team left Brooklyn.""
Tommy Lasorda is a dummy
Fernando Valenzuela, anyone?
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Post by heartybooooo on May 8, 2009 14:02:49 GMT -5
I have said this with Bonds and Arod and now with Manny- I don't get all the moral hand wringing over this. Football players get suspended and the news cycle is maybe a day- then they get many votes for defensive player of the year. When that kind of money is being thrown around, of course people are going to try to get away with whatever they can. The Yankees did it in getting the tax free bonds. If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough.
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Post by Chris on May 8, 2009 14:11:06 GMT -5
I agree...if a player takes drugs, suspend.
But let's forget about the not HOF worthy stuff. What he does on the field he does on the field...leave it at that.
Hell, if he does enough drugs, he won't spend enough time on the field to rack up HOF numbers anyway...so fuck it.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 8, 2009 21:19:52 GMT -5
But the thing is, his drug use made what he did on the field artificial. In short, he cheated.
If Pete Rose can't get into the Hall, NONE of these stat cheats belong.
I liken it to Ben Johnson, who lost his record because he was enhanced.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 8, 2009 21:27:59 GMT -5
Mickey Mantle cheated. He admitted to popping greenies, which are amphetamines. Also, Whitey Ford cheated, he admitted himself in his book he scuffed the ball for the last few years of his career.
Remove them from the Hall?
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Post by MSBNYY on May 8, 2009 21:48:52 GMT -5
I realize you are desperate to link every Yankee to everything, but Mantle didn't take steroids, as evident by the fact that he was out of baseball at 36.
If you think that's the same thing, you're dumber than you look, which incidentally, if pretty dumb.
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Post by sean on May 8, 2009 22:46:41 GMT -5
As much as I love Manny being outed as a cheater, I now have to worry how this will effect my fantasy teams, as Orlando Hudson & Chad Billingsley are both members of The Globex Corporation, and Matt Kemp is a Flying Hellfish. As I type this, Billingsley is locked in a 0-0 duel with Barry Zito
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 9, 2009 0:36:41 GMT -5
Balls, Mantle took SPEED, which was not only banned in baseball, but illegal. And Whitey Ford had a tremendous COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE by admittedly scuffing and marking up the ball.
So, again, out of the Hall?
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Post by MSBNYY on May 11, 2009 13:00:01 GMT -5
Again, those are not steroids. But sure, get them out of the Hall. The two wrongs make a right defense is such an asinine argument it could only come from your brain.
If you really think that steroids are the same as speed, then why is it that the players that use speed didn't get better in their 30s?
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Post by IronHorse4 on May 11, 2009 13:41:39 GMT -5
It's hard for me to believe that a lot of those guys back then wouldn't have taken performance-enhancing drugs, especially when the money was harder to come by due to the lack of free agency. Of course, that is pure speculation. But if some of the best players in the game were willing to break the rules in 1919 to make more money, I don't see why they wouldn't in the 50s and 60s.
As for likening all of this to Ben Johnson, he specifically took a substance for which the penalty was to be stripped of his run time and whatever record or award accompanied it. Pete Rose broke a rule for which the penalty was clear as well.
Baseball should have handled this like football did. Can't do anything about the past, so try to stop it moving forward.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 11, 2009 14:57:21 GMT -5
I'll agree with that. I think had the roids been available, they ALL would have taken it. But it wasn't, so they didn't.
The Black Sox were found not guilty in a court of law. Judge Landis banned them anyway based on the best interest of baseball. There is no reason revoking eligibility and records can't be done under the same circumstances--ESPECIALLY HOF eligibility.
NONE of these cheaters belong in the Hall, except Rose, who didn't cheat on the field.
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Post by Chris on May 11, 2009 15:18:33 GMT -5
There are a LOT more parameters involved in playing baseball than running in a straight line (Ben Johnson)....so much more difficult to determine the direct effect of drugs.
Again, I say, let them take their chances with the punishment in place for getting caught....but leave what happens on the field ON THE FIELD and out of some half-assed Kangaroo Court.
Let the "court of public opinion" handle who is recognized as "legit" and who is not.
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Post by heartybooooo on May 11, 2009 15:34:23 GMT -5
This is such a quagmire. I can understand a position of all cheaters in or out, but not this strange middle ground. I am of the view of all in (or at least considered on the basis of their performance). If a large percentage of players were (are) on steroids, isn't it an even playing field? How does a voter determine who cheated? Bonds and McGuirre never failed tests. Same with Sosa. Who is a cheater? Frank Thomas? Thome? Bagwell? Pedro? Who knows right?
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Post by Chris on May 11, 2009 15:38:50 GMT -5
Apparently Bonds DID fail tests...but, your point stands. This is certainly not a straight forward issue.
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Post by 9 on May 11, 2009 16:13:12 GMT -5
The saddest thing to me is the guys who didn't cheat (as far as we know at this minute, anyway) and will get lumped in as being suspicious, regardless -- Pujols, Griffey, guys like that.
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Post by Chris on May 11, 2009 16:47:17 GMT -5
I don't think Pujols is without suspicion.
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Post by 9 on May 11, 2009 18:55:20 GMT -5
My point exactly. Everyone is a suspect, and especially anyone who showed rapid improvement.
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