MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 11, 2009 21:17:54 GMT -5
What happened on the field is as tainted as these guys' piss. No HOF for any of those cheats.
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Post by Jason Giambi on May 11, 2009 21:46:38 GMT -5
For the record, I took performance enhancement drugs.
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Post by Chris on May 11, 2009 22:17:48 GMT -5
I ran track for a year (or two?) in high school.
I've always had asthma and have used those over the counter primatene mist inhalers, which are much more severe and harsh than the prescribed albuterol inhalers (which they didn't even have when I was younger).
The primatene inhalers basically skyrockets your respiratory system with a cousin drug of adrenaline....epiniphrine....pretty much has the same effect as speed.
I used to take three or four blasts from my inhaler prior to races.
If you're not cheating you're not trying.
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Post by heartybooooo on May 12, 2009 6:00:52 GMT -5
Balls- so what standard of proof? What about Mark McGuirre? He never admitted anything or failed a test. Does pleading the fifth equal guilt? What about Bagwell? For him it is just whispers. Not judging (yet anyway) just curious. Seems like an impossible task.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 12, 2009 6:10:54 GMT -5
Mark McGwire had the shit in his locker open to the press. McGwire is as guilty as they come.
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Post by heartybooooo on May 12, 2009 6:21:18 GMT -5
Creatine? Andro? It wasn't banned or illegal at the time.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 12, 2009 8:38:33 GMT -5
So what? It was a performance enhancing drug, and in the best interest of baseball, this guy doesn't belong in the HOF.
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Post by heartybooooo on May 12, 2009 8:40:50 GMT -5
So items that could be bought at CVS or the nutrician store would cause you to ban someone? Should all those admitted speed users be thrown out as well? I am trying to understand your criteria.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 12, 2009 8:53:48 GMT -5
Again, speed does not make you a better player in your 30s. But sure, throw them all out.
The two wrongs make a right defense doesn't exonerate anyone, especially when you are talking about a much different degree of PED. Speed=robbery. Steroids=murder.
The "I bought it at the store" defense doesn't work either.
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Post by mac0822 on May 12, 2009 9:49:11 GMT -5
Didn't Luis Gonzalez hit 57 HR's one year? How stupid does that sound now?
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Post by heartybooooo on May 12, 2009 9:58:10 GMT -5
Or Brady Anderson.
Although, not that relevant in a steroids/HOF discussion.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 12, 2009 10:10:39 GMT -5
But it is, because all those guys obviously used, and none of them should be in the HOF. Granted, guys like Anderson wouldn't get in anyway, but they shouldn't even be eligible.
This isn't a court of law. This isn't a criminal trial. It is absolutely ok to not honor someone who wouldn't have put up the numbers they did without PEDs.
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Post by Jason Giambi on May 12, 2009 10:12:20 GMT -5
better tell Jeter to stop taking advil, Balls will throw him off the team.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 12, 2009 10:14:05 GMT -5
Now you're comparing steroids to advil? That pretty much speaks volumes for the lack of strength in your argument.
Why not compare murder to jaywalking next?
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Post by Jason Giambi on May 12, 2009 10:16:23 GMT -5
Creatine, Advil.... both help your body.
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Post by heartybooooo on May 12, 2009 10:27:45 GMT -5
I think you are missing the art of exaggeration to make a point. It seems like a leap to penalize for a substance that was neither banned nor illegal.
I know it is not a "court of law" but what standard would you use? Testing failure? Suspicion? What?
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 12, 2009 11:11:46 GMT -5
All of this is moot anyway. See how quickly Yankee fans - who are supposed to be the "smartest fans in the game" and "steeped in tradition" are knocking one another over to be the one who cheers for A-Rod the loudest. Seemingly people dont care about these "black marks."
Sad, really.
Oh, and Balls, to go back to one of your sillier points. You discount Mantle's "greenies" - they dont improve play, you say (although they can get a drunk off his ass to where he can even play, Mantle pretty much admitted without them he would not have been able to get out of dugout...) - anyway, what of Ford? He admits, flat-out, in his own book, to spending YEARS cutting the ball and cheating. That OBVIOUSLY effected play on the field. So, are you telling us here that Whitey Board, the Chairman of the Board, should be kicked out of the Hall? What about all those World Series' he helped us win? Are they tainted? Going back that far, Yankee WS wins are tainted now?
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Post by 9 on May 12, 2009 11:24:03 GMT -5
Does Dunkin Donuts iced coffee count as a performance-enhancing drug? If so, does that mean my softball team has to vacate last year's championship? That would suck.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 12, 2009 11:27:40 GMT -5
If Tom were a Yankee fan, which of course he is not, then he may understand that people tend to root for their team to win, even if their players are assholes. No one is rooting for ARod. They are rooting for the Yankees. Well, you aren't, because you aren't a Yankee fan.
And once again, your "two wrongs make a right" defense doesn't matter. It's not only a different degree, but it's completely irrelevant to steroids.
Do you honestly think McGwire was clean? And do honestly think McGwire didn't take illegal steroids as well? Seriously? And yes, even without a positive test, there is enough circumstantial evidence to taint his career, and a tainted career doesn't belong in the Hall.
Fortunately, the writers have agreed so far, which is why, he's not in the Hall.
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Post by Lindsey on May 12, 2009 11:38:11 GMT -5
i dont think its as simple as 'root for my team regardless of what happens' I mean, granted, I never understood how someone could choose to be a yankees fan so i just might miss that mentality, but if you're an asshole, and you wear my team's uniform, you can still go fuck yourself. I hope you strike out every single at bat.
but then again, I love the game more than I love any team.
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Post by Jason Giambi on May 12, 2009 11:42:13 GMT -5
If Tom were a Yankee fan, which of course he is not, then he may understand that people tend to root for their team to win, even if their players are assholes. No one is rooting for ARod. They are rooting for the Yankees. Well, you aren't, because you aren't a Yankee fan. And once again, your "two wrongs make a right" defense doesn't matter. It's not only a different degree, but it's completely irrelevant to steroids. Do you honestly think McGwire was clean? And do honestly think McGwire didn't take illegal steroids as well? Seriously? And yes, even without a positive test, there is enough circumstantial evidence to taint his career, and a tainted career doesn't belong in the Hall. Fortunately, the writers have agreed so far, which is why, he's not in the Hall. so now we can convict people because you think they are guilty?
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Post by Chris on May 12, 2009 11:43:55 GMT -5
"I never understood how someone could choose to be a yankees fan"
How could someone NOT?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 12, 2009 11:44:30 GMT -5
No. We convict them because it's obvious. Or are you one of those people who stick their heads in the sand? It's not a court of law, and these guys are not going to jail.
But they should not be in the HOF.
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Post by Furious D on May 12, 2009 11:47:44 GMT -5
I think Roger Maris was taking PED's in '61.
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Post by Jason Giambi on May 12, 2009 11:53:34 GMT -5
No. We convict them because it's obvious. Or are you one of those people who stick their heads in the sand? It's not a court of law, and these guys are not going to jail. But they should not be in the HOF. I'm just pointing out that you are convicting Mac without a drug test. I could really give a crap about the Hall of Fame.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 12, 2009 12:14:40 GMT -5
They didn't have steroids in 1961. However, he was smoking 18 packs a day.
You don't need a drug test for Mac. It's blatantly obvious. You sound like those people who ignored Bonds for a decade despite the physical evidence.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 12, 2009 13:01:56 GMT -5
As someone with a law degree, you know "blatantly obvious" is worth shit.
Its amazing how delusional you are.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 12, 2009 13:51:20 GMT -5
As someone with a law degree, I know the difference when trying to put someone in jail, or NOT.
This isn't a crime. The standard can be anything, and under no circumstances, even criminal, are you required to bury your head in the sand and play stupid--or in your case, not playing.
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Post by mac0822 on May 13, 2009 9:31:42 GMT -5
I am all for not putting all these cheaters into the HOF, but wouldn't it be just as wrong to put guys that were never "caught" into the HOF. Say a guy like Frank Thomas - he's "clean" for all we know & say he goes in - what if he was roiding the whole time?
It's a tough call.
In my opinion, you put in the guys you think would have been in anyway. I think that list includes Clemens, Bonds, ARod, Manny. That list DOES NOT include McGwire however.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 13, 2009 11:28:50 GMT -5
I don't believe in putting in the guys you think would be in anyway. If any part of their career is a sham, then they blew their shot. Clemens, Bonds, ARod, and Manny all have artificially high stats due to roids. None of them should be allowed in the HOF without paying for a ticket.
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