$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 22, 2007 7:25:02 GMT -5
Grovers right - the growing take is you can make fantastic money in UFC and the like, without working nearly as much. Lesnar should make sick money in just his first 2 spotlight battles over the course of the year than he cashed in his last year in WWE according to the Torch, - without the rigors of the road or anything else that goes with a full-time pro wrestling sked.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 22, 2007 7:44:51 GMT -5
While I do believe the workload in the WWE is much more involved, I can't believe the top guys in the UFC can make as much as the top guys in the WWE. It's hard to say because I don't know the dollars involved, but just based on the fact that so much more money is involved in the WWE, it would seem like the wrestler would make out better.
Plus, the UFC fights are real. It's hard to say where the greater risk of injury is. But just making a guess, I would say the WWE. I think there are pros and cons with each.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 22, 2007 7:52:33 GMT -5
can't believe the top guys in the UFC can make as much as the top guys in the WWE. It's hard to say because I don't know the dollars involved, but just based on the fact that so much more money is involved in the WWE, it would seem like the wrestler would make out better.
Eh, how many "top guys" do you think there are? Probably 80% of all the talent is making under $200,000 - on top of that, wrestlers pay their own expenses on the road.
Amateur wrestlers coming out are looking for the easier workload - there are only so many "top spots" available in wrestling. Dude, when a guy like Joey Mercury - who had a hot run with MNM was released, he was making $75,000
I think you are overestimating what WWE guys are paid, cause you see them on TV and think they are "super-duperstars."
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 22, 2007 7:56:30 GMT -5
Maybe. I know back in the early 1990s, the payscale was shockingly low. I thought it got better.
Diego Sanchez also became somewhat of a name in MMA because he was on the reality show, so he might be a bit of a draw.
But if an amateur wrestler has "the look" and the size, he can grab that top spot.
I don't know. I think a lot depends on what they find appealing. The fame alone may be enough to drive someone to the WWE.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 22, 2007 8:14:50 GMT -5
Maybe. I know back in the early 1990s, the payscale was shockingly low. I thought it got better.
It didnt. If anything, it got worse, especially as the WWE is really the "only show in town." TNA is a non-entity, as they can pay Indy money to a lot of guys, as they run only 4 or so days a month.
When you are the only employer for full-time grapplers, you can sort of pay what you want, as the wrestlers have no leverage.
Trust me, I know a lot more on this stuff than you. UFC is where its at for young guns looking to do this stuff for money.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 22, 2007 8:19:11 GMT -5
It would really be interesting to see the payscales.
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Post by grover on Oct 22, 2007 10:11:57 GMT -5
I remember reading a list of pay from the time Guerrero just died, and guys like The Big Show, Undertaker, Cena, Batista and of course HHH made the most. Between 800k and 2 mil.
The one that stood out the most was RVD, who was making about 200k. I figured it would have been a bit more since he was a guy who was over with the fans, but he was making crap compared to everyone else.
And the thing with MMA which makes it more appealing is that if someone wants more cash and a bigger name for themselves, it's up to them. Win and you better things come along. In wrestling it can take ages for that. You have to go through a school, then low card it, then mid card it.
And, as I've said before, just because you amateur wrestle doesn't mean you like wrestling.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 22, 2007 10:12:56 GMT -5
True, but what about other sources of income, like shirts, and endorsements? I think the merchandising would also be a way these guys can add to their income.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 22, 2007 10:16:49 GMT -5
Yeah, merchandising adds to it, but unless you are Cena or Stone Cold, your cut is not so big. It certainly wont make a $200,000 guy a half a million guy.
Balls, you're wrong here. There is not nearly as much money in pro wrestling as you think there is. And considering how tough the schedule is, the WWE is not privvy to the talent it once had.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 22, 2007 10:21:24 GMT -5
I understand that to a degree, but how much money is there in UFC? They do a PPV a month, but these PPV have maybe 5 fights, which means 10 fighters. Obviously, not all those fights are main events so the money isn't that much of a payday. The dollars involved can't possibly be as high in terms of what the company makes. I'd be curious as to how UFC buyrates compare to WWE's.
Going by the idea that Diego Sanchez made 32K for one fight. How many fights a year does he get? Not to mention, while the WWE guys have to pay for their road expenses, there's far more specific training involved with the UFC--more so like a boxer.
It's hard to figure it out with numbers on both ends.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 22, 2007 10:29:00 GMT -5
Balls, enough already. Forget about the UFC payscale. We are talking about new fighters looking for something to do. There are under 150 full-time wrestling jobs, pro-ranks. The majority of wrestlers work 4 days a week flying across the globe for under $100,000.
Why do you think a guy like Daivari, at only 23, quit? Cause the amount of time and work he is putting in is not worth his $75,000 paycheck. Most of us make close to that to sit at desks and do THIS all day!
UFC is not the only game in town. There are leagues all over. People can dabble and work towards the big paydays there, while keeping jobs as professional trainers, gym operators, or even bartenders. Less risk, for the same reward.
When you work for WWE for $75,000, you do not keep your jobs as trainers, massage therapists, tattoo artists, or whatever. There is NO TIME.
Not many are willing to spend YEARS in developmental (like Deuce and Domino did) for under $25,000 a year. You dont just walk into a WWE contract - it takes years of working the circuit.
Ultimate fighting, at this point, is easier to nail down.
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Post by grover on Oct 22, 2007 10:35:55 GMT -5
32 was for a win. 16 for the fight, 16 for the win. A lot of MMA guys are into different business endeavors that a wrestling guy can never do. Some make clothing lines like Coutoure, some open MMA schools.
I'd say 5 fights a year is a lot for a top guy. 3 the most. Let's take Diego Sanchez for a second. 32 k, 3 fights, 3 wins. 96 k with 3 fights, and you get to lead a normal life. Plus you get endorsement money from T-shirt and MMA apparel add placement. Rich Franklin made $28 k for losing to Silva this weekend. If he won he would have made $56k. Now with Coutoure making a stink about cash, I expect salaries to go up a bit.
So it's a mix of money and work load. The thing is, MMA is only getting bigger, and is steadily replacing boxing as the new contact sport. The money is only going to get better, which is why all the wrestling insiders are saying the amateur wrestler going to become a wrestler is becoming extinct. It's not there just yet, but there has been a surprising drop in amateur wrestlers.
And, it's all in your hands. Win and you get more. You don't have to sit around waiting for Vince to give you a push.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 22, 2007 11:11:40 GMT -5
Tom--new fighters looking for things to do will factor in everything, and the payscale is the first and most important thing they will look at.
What kind of education does Daivari have? We have no clue what else he could do.
Point about the control factor. Without scripted matches, you definitely control your destiny more.
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Post by grover on Oct 22, 2007 11:30:36 GMT -5
Yeah but it's not the last thing they look at. You're really underestimating the WWE workload. MMA fighters are able to lead normal lives. Wrestlers do not. Not everyone who wrestles in college likes wrestling. MMA pay is less, but the chances are greater and the work load is not nearly as high.
There is a uneven pay scale in MMA, but it's still a more realistic option than pro wrestling. Guys in the WWE may make more but they are n the road all the time and live with wrecked bodies. Any wrestler will tell you they never heal.
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 22, 2007 11:33:53 GMT -5
Workload is a factor. There is obviously MUCH less travel time in MMA. Many people will trade money for time. I can relate to that.
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Post by grover on Oct 22, 2007 11:38:41 GMT -5
Yeah, and a guy like Liddel, Ortiz, Coutoure, ect will equal or better 75% of the WWE roster with three fights. You reach the top in MMA and you can make wrestler money and enjoy life. I remember seeing Kevin Randelman made $70 k in a loss in pride.
It's more realistic. That's why amateur wrestlers are jumping to MMA. Easier transition, less work load, better chances at glory. Once more promotions pop up, you will see pay increase. Remember, MMA is still in it's infancy. Pro wrestling will not get any bigger. Pretty soon you will see top MMA guys making boxer money.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 8, 2007 18:15:42 GMT -5
Scott Collins of the Los Angeles Times has reported that CBS is talking with UFC about producing one or more prime time network specials. The writers strike is making the talks more serious, because the network would be in need of first-run unscripted prime time programming when the shows on the schedule run out of fresh episodes.
wrestlingobserver.com
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Post by IronHorse4 on Nov 9, 2007 1:39:09 GMT -5
Jumping in on this late, but last year most of those UFC fighters were making under $10k/fight, except for the main eventers. I got that from a UFC fighter I met last year.
As for UFC not being the only game in town, well, let's put it this way: there may be other MMA promotions, and a couple are even televised (IFL comes to mind), but there were only two real promotions that had any real exposure: UFC and PRIDE, with PRIDE playing the role of WCW to the UFC's WWE...right up through this year, when UFC bought out PRIDE. IFL has play on FSN affiliates, but no one is watching, and it will die. UFC is the only real game in town. And UFC knows that they are the only ones that will provide any real exposure.
So, just like WWE, if you want to make the long green, you have to work your way to a PPV. And even then, the only reason UFC would be able to pay more is because I figure their PPVs do better than WWE anymore. I may be wrong about that, so don't kill me on it, but I know a bunch of bars that used to buy WWE PPVs regularly that have replaced that expenditure with the UFC PPVs.
And even if UFC could pay more, they don't really have to. The best reason for these kids to go to UFC rather than WWE is because your skill in the ring has a lot more to do with your pop in UFC than in WWE. You don't have to be a great mike guy or a behemoth to succeed in UFC. Not that it's the only formula in WWE, but it's a lot easier that way.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 9, 2007 8:50:05 GMT -5
Was this UFC fighter named Manny Sanguillen?
Interesting post though. It does make some sense that UFC is in a position to exploit the workers. I don't know if a UFC PPV has a better buy rate than a WWE PPV. I would think the WWE would still come out on top there, but I could be wrong.
On the one hand, the WWE has so much more exposure and is so much more well known. So they have a much larger audience pool. But at the same time, UFC fights are real, and they don't give away almost the exact same events on live TV weekly.
I'd be curious to see a buy rate comparison, but I'd be pretty surprised if UFC came out on top there.
I would also think that as UFC gets bigger, the salaries will follow too. You may even see a union form.
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Post by grover on Nov 9, 2007 12:40:37 GMT -5
When another MMA federation makes the scene with a big money backer, then you'll see salaries rise.
Balls, don't be surprised about UFC's buy rates. It's becoming a huge sport and it's drawing the boxing fans who are sick of paying $50 for a weak card and two fighters run form each other.
You're really under estimating how many people like MMA. In fact, I'm sure UFC is right on par with WWE PPV wise. I don't think it's shocking at all. If anything I think WWE would be third behind boxing and MMA.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 9, 2007 12:53:42 GMT -5
I'm not saying the buy rates aren't pretty good. They have to be. But I'm just saying there is a much larger wrestling audience at this time.
Good point about boxing fans. Boxing PPVs are much more expensive. I like MMA fights more than boxing matches. I prefer watching striking to mat fighting, but it's still a more fun sport.
Any clue when Brock Lesnar will debut?
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Post by grover on Nov 9, 2007 13:01:52 GMT -5
How do you know that there is a larger wrestling audience? I'm sorry but there are more people who don't like wrestling than there are that do, and those who don't usually go "It's so fake."
Outside of the US, you have Mexico, and Japan when it comes to wrestling. When it comes to MMA you have the US, Japan, Brazil, parts of Europe. Dude MMA is bigger than wrestling.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 9, 2007 13:11:49 GMT -5
I would just go on the basis of weekly ratings. MMA is certainly on the rise, but I don't believe their ratings approach Raw or Smackdown numbers. Not to mention MMA doesn't fill arenas all over the country night after night.
The WWE has a nice international following too. I honestly don't know, but I would be shocked if at this point, MMA is bigger.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 9, 2007 13:19:43 GMT -5
So I just tried to do a little research, and it was interesting. WWE has about 4 times the ratings as UFC, but UFC does have a much larger buy rate per PPV. The numbers I saw do not include international buys, which increase the WWE totals a lot according to the article, but I was amazed at what I saw. At least in the US, UFC kicks the WWE's ass in getting people to buy their PPV. My only question then is how many PPVs does UFC have per year? You have to factor that in. But I'm guessing that the WWE will not catch up with international numbers thrown in and accounting for more PPVs. www.stormwrestling.com/042307.html
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Post by grover on Nov 9, 2007 13:22:18 GMT -5
UFC doesn't have a weekly show year round either, and they one they have airs later than Raw or Smackdown does, marketing a totally different audience. We're talking about PPV buy rates, not week to week basis. Stop trying to change the discussion.
And UFC and boxing PPVs are not dependent on nerds who need to get every single one and kids. Boxing has always had a bigger audience than wrestling and it probably always will as long as there is betting involved. UFC is still growing but it's still bigger than you think it is.
I'm telling you, don't be shocked if the UFC has a higher PPV buy rate.
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Post by grover on Nov 9, 2007 13:24:34 GMT -5
And doing some more quick research, I just read that in 06 UFC grossed more off PPV than anything in PPV history, with WWE coming in 3rd with falling rates.
Listen, you watch a reality show once a week with one fight a week. MMA has been around before the Ultimate Fighter. I don't see why you're surprised.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 9, 2007 13:28:54 GMT -5
I know that MMA's been around, but the surge in audience is due to the reality show and SpikeTV. Great marketing. I guess what we're seeing is UFC is much better at selling their PPV than WWE is.
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Post by grover on Nov 9, 2007 15:39:47 GMT -5
It's helped, but it's not the main reason by a longshot. You have to keep in mind that MMA was outlawed in God knows how many states until around 2000 and once the current crop of owners legitimized the sport and they were allowed back on PPV the views rose. During this time Pride was drawing huge crowd in Japan.
It's not marketing, it's appeal. WWE has weekly shows and the only people who get PPVs are those who get every PPV and kids who beg their parents. It's a watered down product. I've NEVER bought a PPV unless I split with Tom. Why? I see these guys for free each week. That is not the case with UFC. If The Ultimate Fighter was the biggest reason for it's emergence then it would draw a bigger rating that it does. That article you posted is trying hard to fit a square peg in a round hole. Besides, aside from the first season not many of the TUF participants have gone on to become major players in the sport as of yet.
MMA is still in it's infant stages and in 7 years since getting back to PPV it's already setting records. It's PPV audience is more than that of wrestling, and it will only get bigger. Why? It has a larger audience. If it didn't billionaires like Marc Cuban and a hand full of Russian billionaires wouldn't be looking to get promotions going.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 9, 2007 15:50:18 GMT -5
That's a great point about the wrestling PPVs. They're hard to justify because you are getting these guys fighting each other free.
I wouldn't say the Ultimate Fighter was the biggest reason, but it got the sport a lot of exposure. The guys on the show were more famous than the main guys--at least to the average joe. I remember hearing them comment about that because it was pissing off the top fighters.
It's a little soon to judge the Ultimate Fighter guys. The WINNERS of the shows have done well, or are making names for themselves. Bisping seems to be doing fine, as is Rashad Evans. I think they are fighting each other on the next PPV.
I can totally see why UFC PPV is more appealing. Unscripted and live. Plus, these guys fight every few months, rather than every week.
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Post by grover on Nov 9, 2007 16:04:29 GMT -5
Exactly. In 7 years it's set PPV marks. That will only continue.
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