MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 30, 2007 19:36:24 GMT -5
Miserable Met fans are a joy.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 30, 2007 19:48:31 GMT -5
Willie Randolph has to be fired. Lost control of the team. Guys not running out balls, brain freezes on the field (including a horrid David Wright gaffe), a telling shot of what appeared to be him asking Pedro for advice in the dugout in a big moment, playing second fiddle to his COACHES during the brawl, total mishandling of his pitching staff, no moments of clarity in regards to stepping up and speaking during this freefall.
A horrible display. Whats funny is I remember when he was not able to get a managing job, a lot of the concerns were the fact that no one thought he could run, or discipline a team.
We had not seen that - till these last couple of weeks. He has to go.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 1, 2007 7:49:10 GMT -5
But how much of that is due to the manager, and how much is the players' fault?
You mention the brain freezes on the field, and the David Wright gaffe. How the hell is that the MANAGER's fault?
Guys not hustling? That's also a reflection on the player. If that happens once, the manager's has to discipline the player in some fashion. It's only the manager's fault if it happens repeatedly.
Mishandling of the pitching staff? Manager's responsibility. 100 percent.
But how much was mishandling the staff, and how much was well, the staff? El Duque is over 40. Glavine is over 40. Guys over 40 tend to break down at the end of the year. The Mets had 6 guys on the team over 40, and went out and traded for one more.
What about Mota? They signed the guy to a 2 year deal despite the steroids thing. That's Omar's fault.
I think if the Mets can point to Willie as mishandling the pitching staff, he needs to go. And I think they should get Omar a ticket on the same bus.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 1, 2007 7:53:36 GMT -5
Guys not hustling? That's also a reflection on the player. If that happens once, the manager's has to discipline the player in some fashion. It's only the manager's fault if it happens repeatedly.
What part of my pointing out that it DID happen repeatedly did you not understand? Even yesterday Milledge apparently loafed after a hit, allowing someone to stretch things out. He is a repeat offender. Twice in ONE GAME the other day he failed to run out a ball off his bat! The "best player" on the team in many an eye did the same thing! Dont take MY word for it, the Mets announcers had to acknowledge the sorry scene.
The team had absolutely no discipline the last couple of weeks.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 1, 2007 7:57:06 GMT -5
Randolph has to be held accountable for things that are his fault. Failure of a team to execute is not his fault if he didn't do anything wrong. But it does sound like he did and if he is canned, it will likely be deserving.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 1, 2007 8:05:25 GMT -5
On top of that, apparently his team is not exactly in his corner. I need to read up more on this, but on the FAN right now they are talking about a few nasty things Wagner had to say about him, and adding that with the exception of David Wright "not one player would appear in his corner."
Again, seems like he LOST THE TEAM.
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Post by jwmcc on Oct 1, 2007 8:10:53 GMT -5
Not to mention that the front office never had full confidence in him, implying to reporters during the year that "anyone would have won the NL East with that team last year" and their constant presence in the clubhouse which undermined his ability to lead the team. Not looking good for Willie. Also reading that Rick Peterson may be heading to the scaffold as well. Jw
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 1, 2007 8:16:01 GMT -5
The problem with players is that they are the ones who truly choked, and it's sure easier to badmouth Randolph than to acknowledge it was their fault.
The front office undermining him is the fault of the front office, not the manager.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Oct 1, 2007 8:46:38 GMT -5
It'd be good if Peterson came across town....
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Post by thecaptain15 on Oct 1, 2007 9:32:10 GMT -5
all flights from NY to puerto rico are booked solid tomorrow because the mutts are goin' home
now that is hysterical..true but hysterical...Los Mets in the house....
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Post by thecaptain15 on Oct 1, 2007 9:33:41 GMT -5
Yesterday was the greatest day ever...Mutts lose, Phillies win..G-Men crush Eagles........the only thing that could have topped that is if you add that Boston somehow could have lost a playoff spot yesterday..lol
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Post by Jackass on Oct 1, 2007 11:13:05 GMT -5
Love how MSBGammons can't say anything bad about a Yankee "legend" even when he is a Mutts Skipper.
Marcs a Mark!!
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 1, 2007 11:17:13 GMT -5
Funny line in one of the many stories surrounding this humiliating collapse, this one on page 5 of todays POST.
Fans left Shea in silent disbelief - aside from a few near-brawls sparked by a handful of Yankee loyalists who showed up to mock their rivals.
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Post by Jackass on Oct 1, 2007 11:33:45 GMT -5
Fans left Shea in silent disbelief - aside from a few near-brawls sparked by a handful of Yankee loyalists who showed up to mock their rivals.
That is a classic move. Showing up at the scene of the crime to rub it in. Perfect.
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Post by kingdzbws on Oct 1, 2007 11:35:05 GMT -5
Wait a minute. IF you owned a business and had a manager under you, and the manager managed 25 employees, and they fucked up your business, wouldn't you hold the manager accountable?
I like Willie, but he screwed the pooch BIG TIME.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 1, 2007 11:45:42 GMT -5
Actually, if I owned a business that failed, it would be my fault for putting those employees out there.
At some point, the players have to perform. Not saying a manager is never responsible. I'm saying it depends. I didn't watch the Mets enough to make that call.
I know Torre has cost us some big playoff games with his management. He hasn't managed a good postseason in a long time. To this day I don't get why he didn't bunt on Schilling.
He was outmanaged in every series since.
As for Willie, the most legit complaint I've seen is that he mismanaged the bullpen.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 1, 2007 11:50:33 GMT -5
What about the FACT that the same players, over and over, were showing a total lack of discipline? What about the fact that the only players going on record have nothing good to say about him? And ok, you did not watch enough of the Mets - well, the people who did, the Met fans, are calling for his head on the radio, are as the hosts.
He did a terrible job the last month of the season, and the fact that the team had their head up their butts this past week (and that I saw myself, watching a bunch of their games ) - that reflects on HIM.
Stop trying to take a bullet for him cause he had a cameo on Bronx is Burning, you ass.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 1, 2007 11:59:03 GMT -5
Again, the players complaining means little since they are simply not taking responsibility for their own failures. A player who shows lack of discipline reflects far more on the player than the manager. Hell, Rickey Henderson played cards in the 1999 playoffs and nothing happened to Valentine.
Met fans? Ha. They were planning their parade in May. Who cares what they think?
I realize his status as a Yankee will always make you badmouth him to convince yourself that you are not a Yankee mark, but the real reason the Mets failed was because of the players.
Again, the only legit thing against Randolph was a failure to handle the pitching. THAT is a legit reason to fire the man.
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Post by kingdzbws on Oct 1, 2007 12:19:29 GMT -5
So your sales department makes no sales all year. The sales manager does nothing to change this, and he gets no blame. Why have a manager at all? and HELL YEAH, as an owner deserves fault for putting that sales team together.....BUT HE'S THE OWNER....what do you want him to do, sell the company? Quit? or Fire the sales people and their failed manager and try again?
With that logic the Captain of the Titanic deserves no blame - he wasn't driving the boat, just managing the guy who was, and the guy on the lookout for icebergs.
Sorry
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 1, 2007 12:29:48 GMT -5
If I'm the owner of the company, and my sales department makes nothing all year, then it's my fault for not noticing this earlier and doing something.
Odds are in that situation, the manager earned the job. So if I fire the manager, I lose a leader that had lousy people under him, and keep the lousy people. That's not going to make the business better.
No, the owner wouldn't be expected to sell the company. He would have to address the real problem.
Now IF the owner can think of some things the manager did wrong, then yes, the manager does deserve to go. But that's part of the owner's job--figuring out WHO is responsible for failure.
The captain of the Titanic was partially at fault for what happened. He was the guy trying to go so fast that they couldn't avoid the icebergs. There was some negligence on his part. The disaster was NOT 100 percent his fault though. There was a LOT of incompetence there.
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Post by kingdzbws on Oct 1, 2007 12:47:01 GMT -5
And I'm not saying loose Willie and keep LoDuca and Green, and the other bums. Fire Willie AND clean house on the losers
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 1, 2007 12:53:32 GMT -5
The key is deciding if it was Willie's failure that helped this disaster happen. If the sole reason you got is that the team lost, and if the reason is that the players just didn't produce, Willie doesn't deserve to be fired. If you can honestly point to things that Willie did wrong, then he has to go.
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Post by kingdzbws on Oct 1, 2007 13:04:50 GMT -5
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Oct 1, 2007 13:06:17 GMT -5
Thats been done, Balls.
Do some research. Read the papers. Talk to people who have watched the games (INCLUDING ME) - I have seen his team quit with my own eyes.
This is all out there - stop living in a box, ignoring it, and sticking up for Willie Randolph just cause he used to be a Yankee.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 1, 2007 13:12:14 GMT -5
Talking to you is irrelevant. Any time anyone wore a Yankee uniform, you will automatically be against them. You have no credibility on any matter involving any Yankee, ex or otherwise.
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Post by mac0822 on Oct 1, 2007 13:15:45 GMT -5
If Willie is fired, I'm calling Al Sharpton.
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Post by kingdzbws on Oct 1, 2007 13:28:18 GMT -5
Balls, your quote is valid. He mismanaged his pen and you said yourself that THAT is a legit reason to ax him.
If THAT is a legit reason, what more do you need?
Start dialing Mac.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Oct 1, 2007 14:25:08 GMT -5
None. If he indeed mismanaged his pen, then it certainly is grounds to fire him. If you overuse someone, he runs out of gas in September, and shits the bed.
We've seen that in the Torre era several times. Quantrill & Proctor are two examples.
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Post by drock2006 on Oct 1, 2007 19:53:03 GMT -5
Something that I think gets underplayed...I think Willie lost this team when he cut Julio Franco. Someone (Omar perhaps/) made sure to leak that when Down got fired the Mets cut "Omars guy" Franco to molify Willie
I think Willie lost Los Mets that day, they treated Franco like some baseball god in the locker room.
Obviously thats not the reason they blew the NL East but I think it is the day the clubhouse went from camp happy to the disjointed backstabbing that is bubbling up to the surface
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 6, 2007 19:05:27 GMT -5
David Wright won a gold glove?? I admit I do not watch Mutts games regularly but it seemed to me that he made a few big errors in a few games to cost the Mutts last year from what I remember......Again I am just asking, is he a gold glove 3B?
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