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Post by mac0822 on Nov 14, 2007 8:26:42 GMT -5
They made the $20 million first baseman possible (Giambi)
They made the $6 million SETUP man possible (Farnsworth)
Now they are making it possible for C's in their late 30's to get 4 year deals worth over $13 million per (Posada)
Now they are also making it possible for Closers in their late 30's to make $15 million a year (Rivera)
THANKS NY!!!! Way to "set the market high"
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 14, 2007 8:36:26 GMT -5
Though not the same postion but the same type of "sluggers" at the time didn't the Red Sox already pay Manny $20m (average) by then? Wasn't Farnsworth Atlanta's closer when we signed him?......Rivera I give you but if anyone is worth that money or deserves a bonus as a send off it is him.....ALso they never would have had to offer that if they extended him in the spring though that is no excuse for the salary.....
The Yankees are in no means innocent when it comes to salaries but for the most part the last deade or two they did not make the intial A Rod type of deals......
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 14, 2007 10:05:11 GMT -5
The $20 million first baseman is a bad comparison, since the $20 million barrier was broken by Manny Ramirez and then ARod, so no.
You're really stretching it with Posada since he is a top productive hitter at his position, and did not set any records with his contract.
And I agree with Captain about Rivera.
Closers are already making 8 figures, but this likely will raise the bar.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 14, 2007 10:21:10 GMT -5
Plus 2 catchers already make $13m annually (Pudge and Kendell prior to the Posada signing)
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Post by mac0822 on Nov 14, 2007 10:31:51 GMT -5
What about the Farnsworth contract?
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 14, 2007 10:41:09 GMT -5
Never in dispute, but he was a closer coming in here, and making below market value for a closer. A little tricky.
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Post by Bad Mouth Larry on Nov 14, 2007 10:48:07 GMT -5
mac, you are such a tool.
you can blame hicks in texas for arods contract. and you can blame that guy in LA who signed kevin brown to that rediculous contract. baltimore and joey belle. there are so many. sure, the yankees have done the same of recent, but they have never set the trend on these high salaries. if you knew anythign about history, you might know that, but you are a frontrunning fag.
the sox on the other hand, they now bought 2 world series with all their money. the yankees, never bought a world series. i hope it feels good. you still dont really know how it feels to win the world series. its cheapened by all the money you spent. see, cant say that to me. when my team won over and over again, there were other teams outspending us and by a handsome margin. thank you peter angelos.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 14, 2007 11:04:03 GMT -5
My main point on Yankee salary, aside from setting the bar in many cases, is that just cause one team overpays a player, does not give the Yankees the right to overpay TEN of them. Its like the Yankees wait for someone else to "set the bar" so they can collect a whole gaggle of these overpaid players. Thats why the Yankee payroll is larger than the budget of NASA.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 14, 2007 11:09:50 GMT -5
But you're wrong. The Yankees do NOT set the bar in MANY cases. It's extremely rare, and look at who the money is going to. A guy who is literally the best of all time in his field, and a career Yankee. And when another team sets the bar, that's that. The Yankees have to pay market value. I'm sure you will agree that no one will take a discount just to play for the Yankees. No one takes a discount to play anywhere. If the Yankees do not sign a particular free agent, that free agent will get the same money elsewhere. What sets teams like Boston and NY apart is that they are willing to spend that money on more than just one "break the bank" guy.
And why SHOULDN'T the Yankee budget be larger than NASA? It's not like NASA does that much.
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Post by Chris on Nov 14, 2007 11:16:09 GMT -5
Mac - I agree with your criticisms about the Giambi and Farnsworth contracts, and Posada to a point....but come on...let's not categorize Mo as just some closer in his late 30s.
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Post by mac0822 on Nov 14, 2007 12:46:51 GMT -5
I think the Farnsworth contract has affected salaries more than the ARod deal. Justin Spier got a fucking 4/16 deal. Are you fucking kidding me? Before Farnsworth, muti year/million deals for middle relievers were very rare. Now every "setup" guy wants longterm deals worth tons of $. That kills payrolls.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 14, 2007 12:48:48 GMT -5
ARod paved the way for every mediocre player to be making $10 million or more. Again, Farnsworth WAS a closer when he signed.
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Post by mac0822 on Nov 14, 2007 13:07:54 GMT -5
NO FUCKING SHIT. I KNOW he was a fucking closer, but did he sign with NY to fucking close? NO
If he signed with KC for that $ to CLOSE, I can see.
The bottom fucking line is this: He signed for $6 million to be a middle reliever & that's a joke. That let to the Spier contract & many others.
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Post by mac0822 on Nov 14, 2007 13:10:49 GMT -5
Oh, so it's ok to pay $15 million for a closer because he's been a great closer for NY? That doesn't affect the price of a closer? That contract will "set the market" as that article I linked, said it would.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 14, 2007 13:11:02 GMT -5
Farnsworth got closer money cause he would have signed as a closer elsewhere so I guess in a way the salaries for set up went up based on that but he was not really a set up man when he was on the market..
Mac please don't argue as I hate agreeing with Balls as it is..LOL
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 14, 2007 15:46:34 GMT -5
Regarding Rivera--I think it depends. I think this is a big time case of a reward for a long time employee who has done OUTSTANDING work for them. I don't think he will get more elsewhere. And yes, I agree this contract will certainly qualify as setting the market. It's a little less of an impact because it's their own player, but you are right on that. But even you have to admit that the YANKEES doing something like this is very rare.
I don't think they make this offer to Mo if Mo was a gypsy pitcher who bounced from team to team and they just happened to need a closer.
And more important--why the hell hasn't Mo accepted?
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 14, 2007 15:48:05 GMT -5
Also they had Mo at a huge discount and he took the home team discount enough in his career..I have no problem with him getting paid now.....
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 14, 2007 15:48:48 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, when did he take a home team discount?
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 14, 2007 15:52:38 GMT -5
Yeah...when did he do that?
Mo not accepting means he is mulling over similar offers and may very well leave.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 14, 2007 16:10:19 GMT -5
He could have gotten much more on his last couple contracts if he went free agent imo...
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 14, 2007 17:23:16 GMT -5
How have his salaries compared to other closers in previous years? He SHOULD be the number one paid closer in baseball. Was he at the start of his last contract?
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 14, 2007 17:40:44 GMT -5
Yes.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 14, 2007 17:42:01 GMT -5
Then it's tough to argue hometown discount, unless you believe he would have got even more on the open market. That's VERY hard to prove.
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Post by mac0822 on Nov 14, 2007 18:09:39 GMT -5
How have his salaries compared to other closers in previous years? He SHOULD be the number one paid closer in baseball. Was he at the start of his last contract? Manny is the best hitter in baseball possibly & is a postseason monster, so he deserves $20 million by your standards, correct? |
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 14, 2007 18:24:18 GMT -5
Yes I agree Manny deserves his cash but if we are talking stats than A-Rod deserves his despite the playoff ineptness.
Also even if Rivera was the highest paid closer he was the best ever, so him being the highest paid closer is justifiable and hardly blowing up the market for closers.....
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 14, 2007 18:26:23 GMT -5
Mac just think if the Sox and Theo dumped Manny when they wanted to and tried to do you'd still have no World Series wins..lol.....
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 14, 2007 19:45:38 GMT -5
I can't say that Mac because I honestly don't remember the salary structure in baseball when Manny signed his deal. What were the best players making then, and what was the best deal signed the year before?
I think at the time Manny signed, he and ARod were free agents the same year. Manny should have signed for a contract at or near ARod's, though a little less. What ended up happening was that Manny broke the bank, which helped ARod get what Manny got, but more. Even so though, given Manny's deal, Hicks could have got away with MATCHING it, or maybe going 8 years at $168 million, to symbolically be ahead of Manny's deal. Or maybe 9 years at $189 million. Hard to say, because I don't know what other offers ARod got.
I do think that Manny earned his money. No matter how ludicrous a contract, if the player performs at or ahead of the level he performed at when he signed that contract, he's done his job. There can be NO question that Manny did in Boston what he was paid to do, and even more important, he HAS been a postseason machine for Boston (beginning with the 2003 LCS and with the exception of the 2007 WS).
There are some exceptions, like when he quit in 2006, and this year, he was again unhealthy and his numbers were a little down, but Boston got their money's worth with Manny.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 14, 2007 19:48:53 GMT -5
My memory is a little hazy but how much did the Orioles give Albert Belle in the late 90's? Did hi contract have an effect on A-Rod/Manny?
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 14, 2007 19:55:05 GMT -5
Looks like Belle's contract, which did set the bar at the time, was 5 years, $65 million. It was signed after 1998, so I think that was 2 years before ARod/Manny.
That was the largest annual contract of the time. Bernie got more years, but a slightly less annual.
I don't know if the free agency of those guys would have affected ARod/Manny directly. But they sure would have affected the guys who were free agents after the 1999 season.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 14, 2007 20:01:03 GMT -5
So Giambi came after Manny's 20M (and A-rod) set the standard and Jeter got his 18M after A-Rod set the standard for SS. Posada made less than Kendell and Pudge until this year, Cano is a bargain and abreau 16M is what the Phillies were paying him. So outside of the Clemens part time fiasco, where have the Yanks been out of line with anyone on their current roster annual pay wise (want to argue they gave Damon or Matsui a year or two to many fine but the annual istill in line), besides when Mariano agrees which I do not think is an out of line contract cause if he hit the market he could get a 2 year deal at 14-15M a year I bet....
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