MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 24, 2010 11:09:19 GMT -5
Yeah, but it's also public that he is seeking a $100 million contract. Maybe the Yanks want it clear that they aren't undervaluing the guy and aren't lowballing him. The guy IS a legend. But he IS being treated AS a legend.
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Post by mac0822 on Nov 24, 2010 12:54:58 GMT -5
I had to come here to vent about the whole Jeter saga.
When I hear people say NY needs Jeter as much as Jeter needs NY, I want to literally smash their god damn face. NY is 95 win team with or without Jeter. If Jeter went to another team, he may be 500 more people in the stands, maybe? How many wins would he add to LA?
NY made Jeter, Jeter didn't make NY. PERIOD. If he left for another team, ESPN would suck him off until his team was out of contention and he'd just be another 39 year old has been on a bad team.
The point is - Jeter needs to stay in NY to keep his image of an icon. To say that a 3/45M offer isn't fair, is an insult to NY and their management. If you took his stats and lack of range and put "Smith" on the back of his jersey, he'd be lucky to get a 2/10M offer. The fact is, that offer DOES consider past performances.
On the flip side, I do side with Jeter on one fact. How the fuck can they cut ARod $30M checks unitl he's 43 years old and then tell Jeter to suck a dick before he's 40. To me, Jeter is being a douche about this solely because of the ARod deal. ARod hasn't done jack shit for the Yankees compared to Jeter and ARod is robbing them for 30M a year into his 40's. I'd be pissed about that too if I was Jeter.
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Post by heartybooooo on Nov 24, 2010 13:14:54 GMT -5
The Arod point is interesting. However, Arod had the leverage that Jeter doesn't. When the Yankees re-signed Arod, he was quite productive and there was nobody on the market who could replace his production. The Yanks were also desperate crapping out in the playoffs again. And the Steinbrenner boys needed to show that they are BSDs like their daddy. Perfect storm.
Jeter is not as productive, is at a different point in his career, Cashman has more power (this is his negotiation, not Hal or Hank) and there is nobody who will offer even close to their offer- so if Jeter leaves it is on him and he has left for less money and the Yanks did all they could. They are definitely positioning themselves well in the court of public opinion.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 24, 2010 13:45:28 GMT -5
Mac--
I can't argue with much of anything you said, which is rare. But regarding the ARod deal, let's ignore the ARod production compared to Jeter's for a minute. Let's even downgrade ARod's level 3 years ago to Jeter's 2010 stats. And let's say that with those Jeter 2010 stats, Arod got that stupid deal in 2007.
Regarding Jeter--the answer is so what?
I'm guessing that now that Hank Steinbrenner is not the main guy anymore, and there is no rookie owner to take advantage of, the Yankee front office realizes just how dumb the ARod deal was. I thought it was idiotic at the time, but either way, it was flat out stupid.
The Yankees are NOT obligated to repeat the dumb mistake. It's like when your parents say to you, "if Tom jumped off the Empire State Building, would you think it's a good idea?"
Let's also realize that they are NOT telling Jeter to suck dick before he's 40. They are just saying, and rightfully so, that when he's 40, they want to see he's still a worthy player before they commit.
ARod IS robbing them. But that's not justification for Jeter to rob them too.
Like the old saying goes, "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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Post by mac0822 on Nov 24, 2010 14:00:42 GMT -5
I hear ya, but from Jeter's perspective - he's thinking "I've given a lot more to NY than ARod and he's making $30M. So should I". It's not right, but it's human.
I agree that Mo is a different case. He's still Elite. I just remembered that Jeter won another gold glove this year. That award needs to be done away with.
I was reading an article that say "Imagine if Jeter signed with Boston". That'd be fucking hilarious. Sadly he's not much of an upgrade over Scutaro.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 24, 2010 14:22:43 GMT -5
True, but there comes a point where you have to step back and realize that while that's true, it's not like Jeter isn't filthy stinking rich to the point of ridiculousness, and even more so when factoring in endorsements. It's not about what the other guy has, it's about him. And the Yankees are not lowballing him. They are NOT running him out of town. They ARE trying to reward him. If he leaves, it will NOT be because he was mistreated.
I can't see the Red Sox matching the Yankees' offer. If they did, and he accepted, he's a douche.
Could the Red Sox, in ANY scenario, offer Jeter more than 3 years at $45? Even if they offered 4 years at $60, he would come off as a total money grubbing jerk if he took it. The Red Sox CAN afford it. But other than saying fuck you to their rival, why would they commit that kind of dollars to Jeter?
For what it's worth, everything I say in this thread, I still think Jeter can return to form next year. It's impossible to tell if this was an off year or the start of the decline. He could have been hurt. And it was a really big drop.
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Post by Chris on Dec 2, 2010 16:00:41 GMT -5
According to Mark Feinsand's tweets, things seem to be moving in the right direction on the Jeter contract negotiations.
That's fine.
My concern is the ability to move forward once the contract is signed.
Regardless of what is fair and what isn't - they Yankees behaved boorishly in their public treatment of Derek Jeter, and many feel Jeter behaved foolishly with outlandish demands.
I know millions and millions of dollars will enable a lot of things to be swept under the rug, but how does Jeter show up to camp with a big smile on his face, knowing that the organization he spent his entire adult life with spent the winter repeatedly throwing him under the bus.
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 2, 2010 16:07:06 GMT -5
Wrong. The Yankees offered the guy more than double his worth for more years. Jeter is a prick. That's what these negotiations showed.
By spitting at a very generous offer, Jeter deserves to be thrown under the bus, and the bus should back up.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Dec 2, 2010 16:44:30 GMT -5
Cho, you seem to be off in your own little world out there on Coast Left, with no idea what is going on over on this side of the world. Jeter has been panned here in NY, both by the fanbase and even the media. A common sentiment is "whoever is telling Jeter he is worth what he is asking for, be it himself, his agent, or his girlfriend, they need to shut up and join reality."
A recent NY POST poll had a whopping 72% of Yankee fans backing the Yankees on this one.
Jeter is the one who needs to come slinking back.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Dec 2, 2010 18:51:27 GMT -5
Yeah really Cho....... 15 million a year, on top of what he was overpaid for his last contract is loyal enough.... If he's dumb enough to stomp his feet and walk off, he's tarnishing his own legacy.
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Post by Chris on Dec 3, 2010 13:49:49 GMT -5
You guys (Tom and Balls) still don't seem to get the point I'm trying to make even though I've spelled it out in plain English numerous times here and over Twitter. So what the hell, maybe one more time will sink in.
I don't disagree with the notion that the deal they offered Jeter is fair - more than fair. Was that clear enough, or shall I restate it another way? I think the 3 year / 45 million dollar deal was fair. I don't think that offer was insulting by any means.
Having said that, I don't begrudge Jeter the right to ask for more. That's why they're called negotiations. I do take issue with Jeter calling the offer "insulting" although to be fair I've never seen that claim directly attributed to Jeter anywhere other than second hand retweets.
What I found distasteful was the Yankees' counter to Jeter turning down the offer - immediately going to the negative PR campaign in the papers; up to and including personal insults from that douchebag Hank (I thought Hal put a muzzle on this idiot).
If the Yankees were interested in negotiating a compromise, they should have just done that. Instead they chose to disparage Jeter as a person and a player to the point where I'm wondering...geez, if they think Jeter is SUCH a piece of shit, why don't they just end talks with him now and send him elsewhere.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 3, 2010 13:57:01 GMT -5
If you start out with an offer more than double the guy's value, and he says no, why should you move? The Yanks started by being well beyond the compromise. They tried to avoid that by simply putting out the ass kicking offer first. The Yanks don't have to compromise here. They are 100 percent in the right.
If someone is offered the moon, and it's not good enough, then he IS being a piece of shit. Jeter is being a piece of shit.
And if the Yanks DID tell him to go fuck himself, I would have no problem with it. Jeter is putting himself above the team. He is showing no loyalty at all. The reverse is not true. The Yanks have put Jeter ahead of what his fair value is--significantly. They have shown tremendous loyalty.
Jeter DESERVES whatever insults he gets. Sign the contract and get back to work.
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Post by Chris on Dec 3, 2010 14:52:58 GMT -5
Double his value?
How did you quantify that?
You said yourself you believe Jeter can be a .300 / 200-hit guy still.
Is fair market value for a .300 / 200-hit guy, coming off a Gold Glove (regardless of how bogus you think the award is ... someone places value on it) 7.5 million per year?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 3, 2010 15:09:27 GMT -5
Research it. He's a 37 year old shortstop who hit .270 with no power, whose range is limited. Historically, they don't get major multiyear deals. He'd be one of the oldest SS's in the majors.
Compare his 2010 numbers to Miguel Tejada's. Tejada just signed a 1 year deal for $6.5 million. Jeter's better. But not THAT much better. Most experts say Jeter's fair market value is about $7 million-$8 million.
It's nowhere near the $45 million offered by the Yankees. Not even close.
Do I BELIEVE Jeter can return to a 200 hit/.300 guy? Yes. But would I pay for 4 years plus and take that risk? No.
And would I let the guy go if he wants more? Yes.
And yes, the Gold Glove award has absolutely no value.
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Post by Chris on Dec 3, 2010 15:23:30 GMT -5
You have to make an assumption on what kind of player a guy WILL be when offering him a contract.
If the Yankees think the way you and I do (Jeter is a .300/200-hits guy - much better than his stats last year) that's what you base your contract on.
If the Yankees believe Derek Jeter is going to continue to hit .270 with no power and assume he's a sub-par fielder, then by all means don't offer him 15 mill per. But I don't think the Yankees believe that.
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 3, 2010 16:54:32 GMT -5
Yes you do, but you also have to make an assumption on what the guy will be at the END of the contract.
You also have to factor in Jeter's age and fielding ability at one of the most important positions on the field. Even at .300/200 hits, he's not worth $15 million per year.
But he got the offer out of loyalty.
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Post by pags03 on Dec 5, 2010 1:35:11 GMT -5
All right Jeter & Mo are back, now we can really start the off season!! Cash better get to work @ the winter meetings because as he was scaling buildings Theo was pulling wool over the Padres eyes & got a heck of a player in Adrian Gonzalez!! They will move Youk back to 3B & are more than likely gonna get either Crawford or Werth! We need Andy to come back & def need to sign Lee. Should be an interesting week now that guys are actually on the move!!!
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 5, 2010 8:58:12 GMT -5
True---our own veterans wasted a lot of time, including Pettitte.
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Post by 9 on Dec 5, 2010 12:37:09 GMT -5
I have a gut feeling (and Lord knows I have the gut to go along with it!) that Werth will end up staying with Philly. There's no bad blood there, and I just read on a Phillies blog that Dominic Brown, his successor, left the Dominican league because he was feeling tired and sluggish, which may motivate the Phils to pony up.
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 5, 2010 15:55:18 GMT -5
It would be interesting. Getting Werth would basically make Siwsher expendable.
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Post by sean on Dec 6, 2010 1:21:20 GMT -5
Werth is a National, for an egregious $126 million over 7 years
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Post by pags03 on Dec 6, 2010 11:28:41 GMT -5
Like Cash said about the contract at least he's not a Red Sox. What terrible show of greed for another Boras client. How many years until Werth is demanding a trade out of Washington, claiming that the team isn't getting better!!! C'mon this shows that this guy didn't care about winning!!! $18 mil per for a 32 yr old who strikes out has much as he does and now won't be protected in the lineup. This is only gonna up the anty for Crawford, I just hope if the Yanks don't make a play on him that he goes to Anaheim. Even with the Gonzalez signing if they do nothing else, they still lost a bit with Beltre and Martinez leaving!! Here's also to hopping that Pedroiaphlye doesn't recoup 100% from pin in foot!!!
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Post by 9 on Dec 6, 2010 14:17:50 GMT -5
My gut feeling sure went real far!
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Post by Jason Giambi on Dec 7, 2010 22:19:55 GMT -5
You need to get a beer gut feeling like I do.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 8, 2010 11:03:56 GMT -5
According to Heyman, the Yanks are set to make a 6 year offer today to Lee, in the neighborhood of $23 million per year.
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Post by jwmcc on Dec 8, 2010 11:13:37 GMT -5
Hi Kevin Brown!
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Dec 8, 2010 13:40:13 GMT -5
When healthy, Kevin Brown was phenomenal--especially in the early part of that contract.
As long as he's not 6 years worth of Year 7 Kevin Brown, it won't be that bad. Either way, they have no choice since Lee is the only pitcher of that caliber on the market both this year and next. It's worse if Pettitte retires. They have to either go for broke, or decide to lose.
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Post by 9 on Dec 8, 2010 16:20:37 GMT -5
Plus, Lee is generally viewed as a good guy, while Kevin Brown was always a fucking dick.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 11, 2011 7:37:10 GMT -5
So in what has to be a sign of making a crappy move because there are no good ones left, the Yankees are talking to Andruw Jones.
Well, we need another 30 something strikeout machine who is a has been and never was all that good in the first place.
We need that .230 (optimistic projection) bat in the lineup.
I'd rather have Marcus Thames.
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Post by 9 on Jan 11, 2011 12:37:04 GMT -5
I'd rather have Thames, too. I never liked Jones, especially since he became too fat to be a passable OF after being a Gold Glover at one point.
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