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Post by mac0822 on Sept 7, 2006 7:19:52 GMT -5
Hey MSB,
Break down that Beckett trade again. I want a good laugh.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 7, 2006 7:29:15 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean Christ. We tried to talk him out of doing so back when the trade was made, but he wanted nothing to do with that. He likened it to the Mets trading away Nolan Ryan for what amounted to a bag of balls. And, remember, he said A GOOD MAJOR LEAGUER IS NEVER WORTH TRADING FOR PROSPECTS. Key word - NEVER.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 7, 2006 7:36:12 GMT -5
Give me a break. We've talked about this in the other thread. There is NO WAY anyone could have known what would happen. Beckett wasn't just a good major leaguer. He was a 25 year old former WS MVP pitcher. It's also WAY too early to tell if this trade is a failure for Boston.
And if you really think this was meant to be a serious swap, and not a payroll dump, that's just pure ignorance.
Hindsight is 20/20. At the time, signing Giambi seemed like the right move. But Beckett is still a young, established pitcher and Sanchez is a rookie in a pitcher's park. That trade NEVER would have happened without looking for a payroll dump.
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Post by mac0822 on Sept 7, 2006 7:47:27 GMT -5
Obvioulsy they wanted to dump payroll, but you likened that trade to a Bob Gibson for Luis Polonia type trade. I recall saying that Hanley is the real deal & he is. The guy is a top 5 overall SS already. Sanchez is a legit arm also.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 7, 2006 7:50:52 GMT -5
There is NO WAY anyone could have known what would happen.
Wrong, there are people who make a living - you may have heard of them...they are called scouts....who DO believe this sort of thing can happen. That is why they pick the players going the other way that they do.
Also, there are guys like me that told you no matter what Beckett did, Sanchez and Ramirez by all accounts were players. And they would more than likely flourish. And, guess what?
And no one, except you, blows Beckett so much. So he beat the Yankees in the World Series. Should we canonize the man? He had a terrible injury history, never could consistently go deep into games as he threw too many pitches, and there were murmerings of other things from attitude to demeanor that made him available.
Stop spinning.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 7, 2006 8:12:35 GMT -5
Oh please, like scouts know everything. You are seriously on crack if you think that was a fair trade at the time.
Beckett was an established solid pitcher, in his prime, who did it on the biggest stage, and was still 25 years old.
If anything, the fact that YOU endorse a player is a sign that he's going to suck. You still haven't admitted that Hammond and Osuna were horrible. There's nothing to spin. It's one year.
And let's not forget they also got Mike Lowell in that trade and he has been a very solid player this year.
Personally, I'm glad Beckett is sucking for them, and even happier that they gave up people that are good for him.
A prospect by definition is someone who hasn't done it yet. When an established player is 25 years old, he is better than ANY prospect.
That trade is one that the Red Sox should make 10 times out of 10.
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Post by Bad Mouth Larry on Sept 7, 2006 9:38:47 GMT -5
this is EXACTLY why i stopped going to the boards so much. im tired of arguing with people who dont know shit about baseball. lots of people knew giambi wasnt the right move. just like lots of people knew the red sox fucked up when they got beckett and lowell. but msb will fight for 10,000 posts about how he isnt wrong. when he always is. msb ruined the message boards. because this one aint going anywhere, and the other one is tumbling to the ground. way to go, 0-6.
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Post by Bad Mouth Larry on Sept 7, 2006 9:41:32 GMT -5
lol. lowell is a very solid player this year. yea, solid enough to give over a stud starter or stud ss for. marc, you are so slow.
beckett mightve earned ws mvp honors, and for that you will blow him forever, i understand, but wasnt it sorianos fault that we lost that world series and not becketts for winning it. thats how you always make it sound. fucking yankee mark.
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Post by grover on Sept 7, 2006 9:41:50 GMT -5
Actually, I even said the Sox would get the worse end of that trade unless Beckett flourished and Lowell retured to form. I read a few scouting reports on the players and the common thread betwen all of them was that they all seemed to have a huge upside. I just didn't think those two would produce so quickly. I figured a year of showing potential, and then turing into some quality young players, but Ramirez stepped up right away and Sanchez is also contributing big time.
Either way, great trade for the Sox.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Sept 7, 2006 10:22:16 GMT -5
Larry wouldn't that then make Balls 0 for 8?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 7, 2006 10:25:05 GMT -5
Again, 25 year old pitcher with WS MVP under his belt. If you think that's a guy you give up for prospects in a non-payroll move, you shouldn't be talking about baseball. NO ONE could argue they'd produce so quickly. I don't even think either of them hit AAA yet.
They didn't trade two top prospects for Lowell. He was a THROW IN that produced VERY well.
I hope Beckett breaks his arm ripping out Lowell's only ball.
I'm not saying the Marlins didn't make out well. They did. Good because that's bad for Boston.
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Post by grover on Sept 7, 2006 10:29:34 GMT -5
Also throw inthe Beckett was moving from a weak NL East to an stronger AL East. We all waited to see if he would get the old NL-to-AL kick in the ass.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 7, 2006 10:31:45 GMT -5
Again, 25 year old pitcher with WS MVP under his belt
So what?? ENOUGH with the WS MVP crap.
Here is a list of some other "WS MVPs" - Scott Brosius, Pat Borders, Ray Knight, Rick Dempsey, Frank Viola, Bucky Dent....I could go on and on.
Winning a "WS MVP" does not make you untouchable, you moron.
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Post by Bad Mouth Larry on Sept 7, 2006 10:32:30 GMT -5
but marc was wrong. waaaaay fucking wrong.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Sept 7, 2006 10:39:18 GMT -5
Can someone please point out the last time MSB was on the right side of a baseball related arguement....
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 7, 2006 10:49:24 GMT -5
Uh, there would need to be a FIRST TIME for us to come up with a last time.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 7, 2006 11:00:31 GMT -5
Basically, any time Tom disagrees with me, I'm on the right side of a baseball argument.
And ANYONE who says they knew these guys would produce this well this soon is on crack. And even if they did, it's more the fact that Beckett SUCKED that made this trade look bad to date. Had Beckett produced like he was supposed to, no one could say shit.
That said, I acknowledged when Grover brought it up in the other thread that the trade is looking good for Florida. That's circumstance. Doesn't change that it was a payroll dump.
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Post by Bad Mouth Larry on Sept 7, 2006 11:13:05 GMT -5
even if beckett threw incredible, the marlins wouldve made out on the deal. what the fuck. buy a clue.
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Post by grover on Sept 7, 2006 11:17:40 GMT -5
Well, actually, all the scouting reports said Ramirez was ready to play ASAP, so I personally thought he would not do as good as he's doing out the gate, so it ws me who was incorrect.
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Post by mac0822 on Sept 7, 2006 11:19:49 GMT -5
What the fuck should the Marlins have demaned in return? Manny? How about Schilling? I think two highly touted prospects that are big league ready is good enough.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 7, 2006 11:21:17 GMT -5
If Beckett threw well, then the Marlins did better than they should have for a payroll dump. It was still not a trade you make if you aren't trying to dump salary.
But the real reason things are where they are is because of Beckett.
Ramirez hit better this year than he did in AA ball.
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Post by Bad Mouth Larry on Sept 7, 2006 11:26:17 GMT -5
hey moron! some teams are in the business of dumping salary every 3 or 4 seasons. they can still be competitive and some are competitive. the marlins are one of them. why is a salary dump such a bad thing in your mind. its how we get half our team that you jack your little pasty white dick off to.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 7, 2006 11:30:43 GMT -5
Salary dump is a bad thing because teams should be there to compete and should have a minimum payroll. When teams steal money from the luxury tax, and then use it to line their pockets rather than invest in their teams, that's bad for baseball.
The Marlins just dump salary for the sake of dumping it. They got lucky this time, but usually these trades don't work out so well for them. The fact is they can't draw fans consistently. Even when they win, they don't draw.
No team should be allowed a payroll of less than $40 million. And if they can't afford that, they should be contracted or moved to a city that can draw the fans to let them compete.
The Marlins are one of the biggest disgraces in baseball.
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Post by mac0822 on Sept 7, 2006 11:31:32 GMT -5
LMFAO...I'm glad I started this thread.
Larry does make a good point. He's pissed about the payroll dump, but cheers for Abreu & ARod.
For real- who the fuck should the Marlins asked for?
Wouldn't tossing 5/55 mil at AJ Burnett & losing nothing have been better than trading Hanley, Sanchez, etc to them & then signing Beckett to a 3/30 extension?
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Post by mac0822 on Sept 7, 2006 11:35:06 GMT -5
"They got lucky this time"
Oh, you mean this is the first time they have got good players back for high priced veterans? Don't make me list some other examples.
"The Marlins are one of the biggest disgraces in baseball."
If you asked 100 people, "who's better for baseball- The Yankees or Marlins?" YOu'd be shocked by the response.
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Post by grover on Sept 7, 2006 11:36:10 GMT -5
Well, there are tons of factors to how teams work, and getting people isn't one of them.
I'm sure if KC shelled out a bit more cash they can draw some more guys, but they would need to spend way beyond what they are capable of to get those guys. Look at Toronto for example. they over pay for Burnett and Ryan because they HAVE to. A lot fo teams have problems like this, and a lot of teams don't bother. Winning doesn't always make money.
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Post by Bad Mouth Larry on Sept 7, 2006 11:38:46 GMT -5
Salary dump is a bad thing because teams should be there to compete and should have a minimum payroll. When teams steal money from the luxury tax, and then use it to line their pockets rather than invest in their teams, that's bad for baseball. The Marlins just dump salary for the sake of dumping it. They got lucky this time, but usually these trades don't work out so well for them. The fact is they can't draw fans consistently. Even when they win, they don't draw. No team should be allowed a payroll of less than $40 million. And if they can't afford that, they should be contracted or moved to a city that can draw the fans to let them compete. The Marlins are one of the biggest disgraces in baseball. oh my God. you are so fucking clueless. you cant grasp that a small market cant compete $$$ wise with the large markets, so they do what the marlins do, use young talent, in their first 6 years when they are paid cheaply to win, when they get too old and are free agents, they trade them for more young talent. a team that does this, like the marlins wont compete every year. but if they do it right, they will win 2 world series every 10 years. oh wait, they already do that. the marlins are such a success story its not even funny. they way they operate for a small market and win is phenomenal. the twins do a great job at this as well. there are many teams that use this philosophy, none as good as florida. it always pisses me off that tools like msb call for florida and minnesota to be contracted. those are 2 of the better scouting and developing franchises around. |
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Post by grover on Sept 7, 2006 11:40:22 GMT -5
Some owners to pocket cash, but you know what? Why should someone put money in he generated from somewhere else into something that will lose $$$?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 7, 2006 11:41:41 GMT -5
Wouldn't tossing 5/55 mil at AJ Burnett & losing nothing have been better than trading Hanley, Sanchez, etc to them & then signing Beckett to a 3/30 extension? In hindsight, absolutely. If you asked 100 people, "who's better for baseball- The Yankees or Marlins?" YOu'd be shocked by the response. And anyone who thinks the Marlins are better for baseball is an idiot. There is no logical argument to support a team that doesn't belong in the league against a team that uses its resources to actually winning. Even you should think that. I'm sure if KC shelled out a bit more cash they can draw some more guys, but they would need to spend way beyond what they are capable of to get those guys. Look at Toronto for example. they over pay for Burnett and Ryan because they HAVE to. A lot fo teams have problems like this, and a lot of teams don't bother. Winning doesn't always make money. If you win, you become more attractive to free agents that want to win. You also draw more people, which gives you more money to put into your teams. Still, even if you don't buy into that, look at Oakland. They're a great example of how to run a team with a lower budget. |
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Post by mac0822 on Sept 7, 2006 11:43:44 GMT -5
Minn & Florida are what all other franchises should TRY to be. They certainly aren't teams that should be contracted.
MSB doesn't get that the Twins are not capable of supporting huge payroll or they would have brought in more talent to support that sick pitching staff. He thinks they should be tossed out of the league because they don't have an all star at every position. Unreal.
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