MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 13, 2007 12:52:30 GMT -5
Exactly. There is no guarantee he gets locked up for more than one season, and what if an injury happens? Too many ifs. Johan Santana is not currently worth what would be considered full value for a pitcher of his caliber. Length of the contract, length of the extension, and again, his poor second half, makes him too risky at this time.
For all we know, he could pitch like TITO Santana.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 13, 2007 13:05:28 GMT -5
Arriibbbbaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by kingdzbws on Nov 13, 2007 13:09:18 GMT -5
But he won't be free.
Everyday that passes, player's asking prices rise.
Next summer when the Yankees are desperate, he'll cost more. Next winter if we flame out again in thepost season, he'll cost a heck of alot moe. Teams are going to get more and more desperate for pithing.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 13, 2007 13:20:01 GMT -5
If the Yankees are so desperate, they won't be able to give up the kind of package they would need, because doing so makes their team worse.
Next season, he will cost only DOLLARS, not players. And next year, we may not be as desperate, assuming the terrific trio works out.
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Post by kingdzbws on Nov 13, 2007 13:27:35 GMT -5
Despite Cashman's protestations, the Yankees are perennially in a 'Win Now' mode. The team will deal with two or three years down the line then. First, we gotta improve our staff for 2008 before we think about 2011
Lets not put all our eggs in the 'terrific trio' basket. I am not prepared to have 60% of the starting rotation be untested rookies.
Hughes for Santana, predicated on an extension being signed is a good deal.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 13, 2007 13:40:18 GMT -5
And that move could bite us in the ass double. You give Santana all the bargaining power because you HAVE to sign him. If his elbow is injured, he will not only tank, but they will be on the hook for $100 million and have a Giambi/Pavano situation. But worse, because they would have given up the number one pitching prospect in baseball. And Hughes wouldn't even be ENOUGH.
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Post by kingdzbws on Nov 13, 2007 13:45:39 GMT -5
Signing a big money, big name always comes with that risk.
Based on Giambi's previous record, who'd know he'd flop. I've never heard that Santana is brittle, is that the case?
Is Hughes the #1 pitching prospect in all of baseball?
And even if he is, Santana is the #1 big league pitcher?
In Yankee world, today is more important than tomorrow, despite what Cash says.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 13, 2007 13:53:22 GMT -5
I agree with you about Giambi. There was no way to know what was going to happen.
Hughes was the number 1 pitching prospect in all of baseball, according to Baseball America (before the season). Of course, that's if you don't count Dice K, which I don't. But if you do, then he was #2 pitching, #4 overall.
Is Santana the #1 big league pitcher? Right now? No. His second half was suspect, and he has an elbow history. I think that they really need to LEARN from the bad experiences of Pavano and Giambi.
Santana has had elbow surgery in the past, and his second half numbers were WAY down for him. Those numbers were solid, but he was Wang with more Ks. That's a nice pitcher to have in the rotation, but not worth the package.
Brittle is a strong word. He's not brittle. But while winning now is important, the last thing they need is another flop. If I'm going to risk something on Santana, it would be risking that we can get him next season. With all the money coming off the books, if Santana pitches lights out, they will have a TON of cash to throw at him without even upping the payroll.
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Post by Bad Mouth Larry on Nov 13, 2007 14:23:22 GMT -5
Hughes for Santana, predicated on an extension being signed is a good deal. are you on smack?
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Post by Bad Mouth Larry on Nov 13, 2007 14:24:19 GMT -5
Based on Giambi's previous record, who'd know he'd flop. <-------------------- hi
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Post by kingdzbws on Nov 13, 2007 15:58:28 GMT -5
I feel like I am, this freaking day is dragging on so slowly.
What I meant by that was, based on past 'studs' we've had comming up through the system, like Eric Milton, there is no lock on Hughes becoming the man.
Santana is the man. And right now.
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Post by Bad Mouth Larry on Nov 13, 2007 16:09:23 GMT -5
right. so why in the world would the twins give up santana for only phil hughes? it would take at least hughes, melky and someone else to get him.
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Post by kingdzbws on Nov 13, 2007 16:28:21 GMT -5
Well now that's the reality. If we're arguing that Joba / Johan is equal then Hughes/ Johan is more than equal. But that's my point. Santana is proven, despite whatever injury issues Balls say he has. Hughes in unproven, and has injury issues too.
Yeah, I would have to be a serious dope fiend to trade Santana for Hughes straight-up if I was the Twins.
I fear Hughes' value is at it's highest now, and it won't get higher. SELL while he has some value. The odds of this 'terrific trio' working out are slim at best. One of them has to go now before they're worth disappears, Hughes seems the weakest to me.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 13, 2007 16:46:34 GMT -5
That's the thing--I think Larry's right there. And I think that package, fair or not, is too much for the Yankees in the long run. At least that's the case right now, when Santana is NOT signed for more than a season, and he has tapered off. Plus, he is not getting younger.
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Post by jwmcc on Nov 13, 2007 16:50:13 GMT -5
"and he has tapered off. Plus, he is not getting younger"
Santana is 28 folks.
Not 38
28.
And he had one bad second half of a season, and gave up a few more home runs than he usually averages.
Despite that, he was still 7th in AL ERA, 2nd in strikeouts, 3rd in K's per 9 innings, 1st in WHIP, led the league in shutouts, etc.
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Post by kingdzbws on Nov 13, 2007 16:52:41 GMT -5
OK I can agree about the package. Yankee fans always want Cy Young for a bag of peanuts, but in context of this thread we can discuss.
BUT Santana is only 28, and hasn't missed a start in like 3 years.....who can say that he's 'tapered off' When Jeter had his horrible 1st half last year, people said he was 'tapering off' he was older than Santana is now, and was coming off of an injury. We know now that they were wrong, right?
EDIT: HEY, way to steal my thought J.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 13, 2007 16:57:33 GMT -5
I know he's 28, but I'm thinking long term and the deal it would take to keep him. We will be getting the Santana in his 30s, assuming we keep him. And what if they do this and DON'T sign him? Or, worse, if they DO sign him, and he Giambis? It's a far smarter move to let him hit the market.
Jeter never had elbow surgery as a pitcher on his pitching elbow. John's numbers are fine of course, but they are mostly bolstered by his first half.
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Post by grover on Nov 13, 2007 17:26:59 GMT -5
Well then the Yankees might as well never make a trade or sign a free agent ever again.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 13, 2007 17:46:22 GMT -5
And what if they do this and DON'T sign him?
Since when do the Yankees get outbid?
We will be getting the Santana in his 30s, assuming we keep him
And this is a team getting Posada in his 40s, and thats fine by you....whats your point???
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 13, 2007 17:48:51 GMT -5
So basically, your definition of good baseball is to repeat a potential mistake. You WANT to recruit players to come here and decline even when you don't have to, because they did it before.
That's great thinking.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 13, 2007 17:49:53 GMT -5
Johan is NOT in decline, nor likely to decline. He is TWENTY EIGHT.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 13, 2007 17:55:33 GMT -5
28 is not old, unless you have a bad elbow, and that second half was not good.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 13, 2007 18:05:02 GMT -5
LOL!!! 99% of the pitchers in baseball would love to have had that second half as a rule.
Bring in Santana now.
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Post by grover on Nov 13, 2007 18:12:50 GMT -5
Balls, it's not like the Yankees are making a grab at an unknown. It's the best pitcher in baseball. How is it that you can say that this is a huge risk but when the Red Sox got Beckett, who went to Boston with even bigger question marks, it was the worst trade in history?
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 13, 2007 18:19:39 GMT -5
Its cause he's got "a thing" for Hughes.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 13, 2007 18:46:37 GMT -5
Again, he WAS the best pitcher in baseball. He is not the best pitcher in baseball right now. And yes, his second half wasn't that bad, but it was about what Wang does.
Beckett isn't going to cost Boston $100 million.
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Post by area51 on Nov 13, 2007 21:56:50 GMT -5
I'm sorry ....is this Santana that we are talking about ? I mean if don't want to give up Hughes (unproven - except for those innings in texas, he has done nothing for us) and Melky (who is at best an average CF) for the BEST PITCHER in baseball then we got issues.
Once again there are only 2 pitchers in baseball that I would give the ball with 100% confidence in a game 7 of a WS .... Santana (on the trading block?) and Holladay (and we all know we will never get Holladay)
Go get him. We need an ace. I don't think we will ever make it to the series with a bunch of #2 and #3 starters.
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Post by jwmcc on Nov 13, 2007 22:50:13 GMT -5
Wow, you know it's one of those days when Jose comes up with the best post of the day, in this section of the board at least. Jw
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 13, 2007 23:01:58 GMT -5
Santana would be great--if he's the same pitcher, which at least based on the second half of last year, he is not.
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Post by bernie51williams on Nov 14, 2007 16:17:54 GMT -5
Cano+Hughes for Santana= no thanks.
Cano is a guy whos gonna hit .300 hit 25 HRs and 100+ RBIs next year and hes still what 24? Hughes is 22 and has more potential than most pitchers in the league and during his last few starts of the regular season and his postseason performance began to show that.
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