$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Feb 1, 2008 13:38:40 GMT -5
And even if that is true, the Yankees said no to it. At least the Twins were making an attempt. While a package led by Kennedy and Wang would have been better than the Mets package, a deal led by Kennedy and say Alan Horne would not necessarily have been, and for all we know the Yankees may have countered with something like that.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 1, 2008 13:42:59 GMT -5
But a deal led by Wang and Horne would have been. The fact that the Twins took so little means there were a lot of combinations the Yanks could have done to top the Mets. The Mets really got lucky here.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Feb 1, 2008 13:45:59 GMT -5
I just think Hal had a lot more to say on this one tpotential transaction given the payroll and financial aspect of acquiring Santana.......
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Post by thecaptain15 on Feb 1, 2008 13:47:33 GMT -5
The Mets really got lucky here.
Samething happened with Beltran when he fell into their laps after the Yanks were not interested and Boras even came back with a "discount offer" for less then what the Mutts were signing him for...We have helped the Mutts out a lot lately......
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 1, 2008 13:59:52 GMT -5
Very true. Sometimes big agents and other teams tend to overestimate the Yankees' willingness to spend. Sometimes people learn from mistakes.
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Post by Chris on Feb 1, 2008 14:02:13 GMT -5
I think us Yankee fans tend to overlook the fact that New York is a desirable place for high profile players, whether it's the Yankees or the Mets.
And you might even argue that the Mets are a better situation as the expectations and scrutiny isn't as high as in the Bronx.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 1, 2008 14:05:13 GMT -5
Because of that scrutiny though, when you succeed in the Bronx, you are a much bigger star than in Queens. Your failures are magnified too, but you have a shot at immortality in the Bronx. Not literally of course, because after all, baseball players are human, and all humans die, and being a Yankee great is not the Fountain of Youth. However, if you are a Yankee legend, your name will live on.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Feb 1, 2008 14:08:07 GMT -5
Sometimes big agents and other teams tend to overestimate the Yankees' willingness to spend
This would be akin to someone supposedly overestimating a 500 pound mans willingness to eat.
There is a reason people think the Yankees will pay anything, its cause they USUALLY DO.
What part of 200 and a couple of dozen million dollar payroll and 4 of the top 10 highest paid players in baseball although you are only one of 30 teams are you missing here?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 1, 2008 14:19:03 GMT -5
You would know!!!
And all of those players would be top ten paid players anywhere--even Giambi. Giambi isn't worth it, but he would have got a similar contract elsewhere.
Of those 4 top ten players, 3 of them are worthy of their salaries.
That said, the Yanks have close to $90 million in payroll coming off the books after this season.
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Post by Chris on Feb 1, 2008 14:27:07 GMT -5
I think the point here, Balls, is that if not for the Yanks, those players with top 10 salaries would be scattered throughout the league...not stockpiled on one team.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 1, 2008 14:42:13 GMT -5
And the counter to that though is, so what? The real point is that those players are what they are, and belong there. Only one of those players is a raw deal. So the Yanks were smart to go after the other 3, and the 4th one was worthy at the time he was signed.
Name some examples of really stupid TRADES the Yanks' have made over the past 10 years. Compare the talent given up. Even if the players we got busted, the package given up wasn't bad, and under the circumstances, the trade made sense at the time.
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Post by grover on Feb 1, 2008 16:39:39 GMT -5
How about trading Mike Lowell to the Marlins which helped us lose a World Series and the Red Sox win one? Stupid enough for you.
Well, what's stupid enough for me is you thinking that teams overestimating the Yankees' willingness to spend. Well, yeah, the Yankees were about to make Santana the highest paid pitcher ever if the deal went though, and put him on the field with the highest paid baseball player ever. Yeah, those teams are overestimating all right.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 1, 2008 17:35:52 GMT -5
The Mike Lowell trade was a bad one, but they were taking something that was covered for several years, and getting rid of him for pitching. They didn't need Lowell.
Considering the Yankees did NOT part with both the money and the prospects, it would seem that you are overestimating their willingness to spend too. I'm not just talking about money. Players too.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Feb 3, 2008 11:09:45 GMT -5
More on the heist from Olney...
Hey, the Athletics may well have gotten more from the Chicago White Sox for Nick Swisher than the Twins got for the best pitcher on the planet, especially if Fautino De Los Santos is as good as Oakland thinks he is.
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Post by Jackass on Feb 3, 2008 12:13:45 GMT -5
If that tidbit came from anyone except that load, Olney, I would give in credence.
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Post by Chris on Feb 8, 2008 14:53:31 GMT -5
I had to laugh at Hot Stove last night when David Cone proclaimed Johan Santana is a lot like he was at 29.
Umm, I'm a big Conie mark, but with all due respect.....
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Feb 8, 2008 15:01:13 GMT -5
And thats just another reason why Cone is going to be such an absolute pleasure to have around in one form or another for a third of the Yankee YES broadcasts this coming season. Ugh, looks like I will have the volume down and some music playing.
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 25, 2009 6:38:49 GMT -5
On September 28, 2007, I mentioned that Uptown told me he read an article about Santana having elbow issues. Ever since, I kept talking about a potential bad elbow in this very thread.
You scoffed. You were stupid.
I said that if Santana tanks, you give up your prospects and are stuck with him long term.
It would be Giambi II.
You guys would have traded Melky, Joba, Hughes, and your first born son for him.
That would have been SOOOOOO brilliant. Best pitcher in baseball my ass.
Now he is likely to have season ending surgery on his pitching elbow--the same elbow I kept talking about as being suspect.
Looks like the ticking time bomb is set to explode.
Let's see if he's the same pitcher after this.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 25, 2009 14:10:37 GMT -5
Out for the season and having arthroscopic surgery on his pitching elbow.
Good thing we kept Melky, Hughes, Cano, etc.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Aug 25, 2009 14:51:44 GMT -5
Balls, this is not the explosion you were looking for. This sort of "cleanup of bone chips" is practically routine these days, and he should be back and good to go for spring of next year.
So he is missing the final month of the season here. Wow! What a disaster. The games he would have won the Yankees last year probably would have vaulted us to another title.
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 25, 2009 15:19:49 GMT -5
It's only a matter of time. I told you 2 years ago he had trouble in his pitching elbow. If you were the GM, we would have an ace on the DL, with no CC, Hughes, or Melky.
He would have had an ERA in the 4s last year in the AL East.
We wouldn't have won shit last year with or without him because there was no one to play defense. And most important, a deal is judged as a whole, not in the first year. He's breaking down in year 2.
This may be the best deal Cashman didn't make.
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Post by 9 on Aug 25, 2009 17:57:51 GMT -5
Balls, you're reaching. It's not like he's getting his elbow reconstructed. He'd probably pitch through it if the Mutts weren't 201 1/2 games back.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 25, 2009 20:04:45 GMT -5
And he'd be damaging himself more. Surgery on his pitching elbow. Yeah--that's normal. May be pitching fewer innings than Joba.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Aug 25, 2009 20:35:35 GMT -5
joba needs to find a way to stay in his game and not give up so many hits and walks.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Aug 25, 2009 21:19:11 GMT -5
He needs to pitch every 5 days and not be given 3 weeks between starts.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Feb 18, 2011 9:04:52 GMT -5
"Santana for Hughes I would do immediatly. "
--SheriffTom, start of this thread.
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Post by 9 on Feb 18, 2011 21:23:25 GMT -5
Way to fire a shot and then go hide in the Caribbean. ;D
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Post by Chris on Mar 1, 2011 13:19:22 GMT -5
You can't use hindsight to refute an argument's validity at the time it was presented.
If it were a straight-up trade, at the time the Met's signed Santana, that's a no-brainer: Hughes for Santana.
30 out of 30 GMs pull that trigger without even blinking.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Mar 1, 2011 13:56:10 GMT -5
At the time the argument was presented, I argued that Johan was showing signs of no longer being the best pitcher in baseball. I remember citing concerns about elbow problems, and of course I was still in full Giambi mode, thinking that the guy was going to tank.
Where I had an issue was prospects PLUS the 7 year deal that followed. I wasn't positive of course, but I felt that in the AL East, Santana wouldn't have pitched to the level that he would have been paid. Obviously, his lack of durability since then proved my concerns valid. I expected this back then.
Hughes for Santana straight up? Yes. I would have done that too, but that was never on the table. The Twins wanted to rape the farm system. The deal with the Mets involved a bunch of lesser prospects that fortunately for the Mets, aren't anywhere near Santana.
People were laughing when I was concerned about injury. I was right. Neener neener neener.
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