$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 15, 2008 12:45:11 GMT -5
What says The Devers source?
Morons.
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Post by 9 on Jan 15, 2008 13:32:56 GMT -5
My guess is, "Teh."
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Post by ajfreakz on Jan 15, 2008 17:19:33 GMT -5
The only problem is, I should have kept the other title as the thread title, because THEDEVER's post from yesterday is now the first post in this thread. Throws it all off. To correct that, and if you don't feel like clicking back, here is THEDEVER's post from 12/27/07 at 3:49 p.m.:
MY FRONT OFFICE CONTACT JUST CONFIRMED IT.
KENNEDY , MARQUEZ AND MELKY PLUS A MINOR LEAGUE TO BE NAMED LATER.
WORKING ON CONTRACT EXTENSION AS WE SPEAK.
WATCH THIS SPACE.
that was what the dever's source said almost now 4 weeks ago.. basically all they needed to do was meet to sign and take a physical it seemed
even if we get santana at the end of all this THEDEVER and his source are malarky
my 4 year old nephew could've said this was or wasn't going to happen ..there are only a few teams out there who could get the guy.. its all malarky
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 15, 2008 17:27:15 GMT -5
I wish Dever was right. THAT was a much more doable and reasonable package than the ridiculous one the Twins expect.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 29, 2008 16:09:46 GMT -5
Santana to the Mets is apparently done. Being reported on ESPN-radio, more within the hour in terms of confirmation.
Tell The Dever and his source to get bent.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 29, 2008 16:15:16 GMT -5
And so the Twins end up getting more than what they get via free agency and draft picks, but nothing compared to what they tried to rape the Yankees and Red Sox for.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 29, 2008 16:16:03 GMT -5
LOL! What do you know about what the Mets are sending?
LMAO!
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Post by sancho231 on Jan 29, 2008 16:28:04 GMT -5
I hear Gomez is supposed to be good.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 29, 2008 16:32:31 GMT -5
Twins are still coming out of this on the short end, but their hand was forced. Word is Santana told them he wanted something done by TODAY, or he was going to invoke his no-trade and leave as a free-agent after the season. Twins had to do what they had to do. Yankees dropped the ball, regardless, they should have waded in and bought this guy over.
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Post by Chris on Jan 29, 2008 16:40:31 GMT -5
This move really diminishes the wiggle room for Cashman in retaining his job. As it stands now, the perception is ownership wanted Santana and Cashman talked them out of it. I'm rooting for Cashman.
From a fan's point of view, I wouldn't want to lose Kennedy, Melky, or Hughes, but if offered the best pitcher in baseball, you HAVE TO - that's a no-brainer. Not acquiring Santana still puts us a couple of steps behind the Sox rotation, but we now have the opportunity to let the youth movement play out.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 29, 2008 16:46:09 GMT -5
I am glad he is going to the Mets.......I would rather another NL team but out of the 3 teams that were actually in it, I am glad he is a Met...
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Post by jwmcc on Jan 29, 2008 16:46:27 GMT -5
Exactly, and considering all the "Rules" the three kids will have imposed on Girardi, they have to pitch lights out and the bullpen has to perform like it hasn't in years or it's over for Cashman once they're out of playoff contention. Jw
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Post by grover on Jan 29, 2008 16:52:32 GMT -5
And it's a youth movement that better pan out.
I feel good about Joba, but Hughes and Kennedy better pan out or I'm going to fucking go insane.
The Mets are going to go into 08 with a chip on their shoulder, and are inheriting the best pitcher in Baseball. They are going to be the team to beat in the NL now, hands down.
They also gave up quite a bit. Saying what the Mets gave up was 'nowhere near' what the Sox and Yanks wanted to give is ignorant at best. is it as good as those deals? Maybe not. It's not 'nowhere near' as you say Balls. Gomez is pegged to be a beast.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 29, 2008 17:13:57 GMT -5
I know that the Yankees and Red Sox both have better farm systems than the Mets and that short of throwing in Reyes or Wright, the Mets have nothing to counter what the Yanks and Sox were expected to give up.
Bottom line is all three of these kids are important to this team. They are all young, and none of them will pitch more than 30 innings more than the previous year. As for Gomez, let's wait for that Baseball America top 100. He's only #3 in the Mets organization, hardly comparable to the MLB ready talent the Twins were standing pat on.
This is not as good of a package as the Twins tried to rape the Yanks and Sox for.
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Post by grover on Jan 29, 2008 18:18:29 GMT -5
Yeah, sure, we'll see. I distinctly remember you nitpicking Hanley Ramirez's minor league stats and laughing at us after we said he is going to be a solid hitter. Let's hope you're right this time around or else we'll be bugged by a pesky Twins team again.
And while it's not our package or the Red Sox guys, it's not far from our package, because the Mets have been in the hunt all this time. It's not that bad of a deal.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 29, 2008 19:07:32 GMT -5
And I still rip that. Trading a 25 year old pitcher in his prime and with time before free agency, who already has a WS MVP for two prospects, the best of which never made it past AA.
The Red Sox got the better of that deal.
But, that said, I don't believe any of these prospects rate with Hanley Ramirez. We'll see in a few weeks when the top 100 came out.
They didn't get the Mets #1 prospect.
But they did get 4 of the top 10, including 2-3-4. Yet the Mets don't seem to have a strong farm system, and they didn't even come close to their goal of an MLB ready CF and a front line starting pitcher.
Whoever used the Deal or No Deal Analogy nailed it.
The true winner of this deal is Santana--at least in 2008. Barring mega greed, the Mets will likely give him close to a record deal. He should get something similar to Zito. Plus, he's moving to the NL which will lower his ERA. AND, at least for one year, he's in a great pitcher's park. I have no idea if the new Stadium will be a pitcher's park or a hitter's park.
The Twins got almost the best deal possible from the Mets that they could. They just missed out on Martinez.
Here's part of Baseball America's take on the Mets' system. Tom could provide MUCH more detail on the prospects:
More disconcerting, however, was that some of New York's young building blocks struggled. Franchise cornerstone Jose Reyes wilted in the second half, hitting just .251 after the all-star break and .205 in September. Mike Pelfrey, who signed for a club-record $3.55 million bonus as a first-round pick in 2005, went 3-8, 5.57 and failed to keep the No. 5 starter's job. Philip Humber, a first-rounder whose $3 million bonus ranks second in club history, got hammered by the Nationals in his lone start during the season's final week.
Scouts from other organizations say the Mets have little immediate help on the way in the farm system. The jury is still out on how much Pelfrey and Humber can be counted on, and there's not much in the way of upper-level position players behind outfielders Lastings Milledge and Carlos Gomez.
The lack of talent reflects New York's decision not to wield its large-market resources to acquire talent the last two years, particularly in the draft. The Mets have surrendered their first-round choice as free-agent compensation in each of the past two drafts, and haven't tried to compensate by exceeding MLB's bonus guidelines with other picks. Minaya said that could change in the near future.
"We've adhered to the commissioner's slot recommendations," Minaya said. "We've been good citizens. But not all the teams have done that, and the competitive balance is not fair. We have to take that position under review as an organization."
New York did sign 15 players internationally in the summer of 2007, more than any other organization, and has tried to use that market to find impact talent. The Mets have aggressively pushed prospects such as Dominican outfielder Fernando Martinez and Venezuelan righthander Deolis Guerra—the top two prospects on this list—and they've handled it well. A third, Dominican catcher Francisco Pena, faltered in full-season ball as a 17-year-old in 2007.
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Post by ajfreakz on Jan 29, 2008 19:36:36 GMT -5
i forgot if i read it somewhere or saw it on tv. but some sports reporter said what the twins have done is very similiar to the game show "deal or no deal" after they decided not to take the offers from the yankees or redsox, you can take the million, 750,00 and 500,000 off the board and that left the leftover offers.. if they did a deal with either of the yanks/or sox during the winter meeting they wouldve been better off.. good for the mets. those yankees mets games this year will have a little more fire to them
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 30, 2008 6:44:36 GMT -5
So as I was saying, the Twins got hosed. www.baseballamerica.com/today/Front headline? Twins Didn't Get Enough. Direct link: www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=707Baseball America is basically saying the Twins overplayed and got screwed, but that the package from the Mets isn't nearly enough. Here is the back half of that article: Minnesota might be better off if those talks collapse, giving new Twins GM Bill Smith a chance to find a better return for Santana. While he’s going to command possibly the richest contract ever given to a pitcher, Santana is the best pitcher in the game. And Smith didn’t get enough for him. Guerra (No. 2), Gomez (No. 3), Mulvey (No. 4) and Humber (No. 7) all ranked prominently on our Mets Top 10 Prospects list. But there’s simply too much risk involved in this deal for Minnesota. The two best prospects in the trade, Guerra and Gomez, come with high ceilings but also lack a lot of polish and have a long ways to go to reach their potential. The odds that they both will do so are slim. Guerra has an 89-94 mph fastball and a promising changeup and he’s only 18. But he also has a below-average breaking ball, has yet to pitch more than 90 innings in a season and while he has held his own, he hasn’t dominated. Gomez had the best package of tools in the Mets system, but his bat is still extemely raw as evidenced by his career .273/.331/.384 averages in the minors. Mulvey has an arsenal of four average pitches and throws strikes. He’s not overpowering and he’s most likely a No. 4 starter. Since having Tommy John surgery in 2005, Humber hasn’t fully regained the stuff that made him the No. 3 overall pick in the 2004 draft. His curveball is his best pitch but his fastball now sits at 87-91 mph. He too projects as a No. 4 starter. The Twins have traded Santana for two high-reward but also high-risk prospects, and two back-of-the-rotation starters. They didn’t get a prospect whose combination of ceiling and certainty approaches that of Hughes, whom the Yankees were willing to deal for Santana earlier in the winter. They didn’t get a package comparable to the ones the Red Sox reportedly offered earlier, fronted by either Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester and also containing two solid prospects nearly ready for the majors: righty Justin Masterson and shortstop Jed Lowrie. By this point, however, the Yankees were no longer willing to part with Hughes and the Red Sox may have reduced their offers as well. But even if that left the Mets as the only serious bidders, the Twins should have insisted on New York’s top prospect, outfielder Fernando Martinez. As it was, Minnesota’s return doesn’t compare favorably to the six-player package the Athletics extracted from the Diamondbacks for Dan Haren. The A’s also got two quality arms from the White Sox for Nick Swisher. The Twins entered the offseason with three potential frontline starters on their big league roster. They since have traded Santana and Matt Garza, and they’re going to need Francisco Liriano to return to health and their offense to pick up an awful lot of slack.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 30, 2008 6:55:15 GMT -5
Another article, this one from ESPN, discussing the deal, and how well the Mets did. insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3221258&name=law_keith&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d3221258%26name%3dlaw_keith"For the Twins, or at least for their fans, this has to feel like a huge letdown after a winter that saw names like Jacoby Ellsbury and Phil Hughes bandied about by the media, although whether those players were actually available in trade talks is another matter entirely. The Twins deal their best asset and the best pitcher in franchise history -- not to mention the greatest Rule 5 pick in the history of that draft -- for quantity, but not the type of quality you expect a pitcher of his caliber to fetch in return. " And on a sidenote, ESPN mentions the exact same things I did when it came to not wanting to deal the superior package for Santana--namely, his poor second half and his previous elbow injury. "Santana is not without his red flags; he stumbled to the finish in 2007 and in the past has had elbow chips, a problem that tends to recur. He's become more flyball-oriented recently, leading to a big spike in his home run rate this year; the acquisition could encourage the Citi Field architects to push the fences back a few feet. And the days of him shouldering 230-240 innings a year may be behind him, although facing the pitcher two or three times a game may help him recover some of the lost workload. " The point is that I didn't make up the concerns about Santana, despite claims to the contrary, and I was not the only person to come to the conclusion that trading the kind of package that the Twins tried to get, was wrong. So the Mets got him for a price far below what the Twins tried to get from the Yanks and Sox. Because of the package, the Mets made out like bandits, assuming they sign him by Friday at noon.
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Post by jwmcc on Jan 30, 2008 8:38:31 GMT -5
Forget about Minnesota for the moment, missing in all these posts is that unlike the Yankees, the Mets addressed their most important need, and that was getting an ace to lead their staff, something they lacked last year. This puts them as front runners in both the NL East and in the league overall, despite " he stumbled to the finish in 2007 and in the past has had elbow chips, a problem that tends to recur. "
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 30, 2008 8:40:56 GMT -5
Couple of things here.
If the Twins did anything dumb, it was lollygagging too long, and putting themselves behind the 8 ball. Reason this deal was done was Santana earlier this week told the Twins the deal had to be done by yesterday. If not, he would invoke the no-trade, and leave as a free agent. The Twins were left with what was on the table, after the Sox and Yankees long ago decided to move on. A big mistake, by the way.
Anyway, stop crapping on the package, cause as even the things above you are trying to spin admits there is a potential for TWO potential game-breaking talents in the deal. And all four profile as probable major leaguers. There were no real "throw-ins."
As to the package, the Yankee package was not so awe-inspiring either. Cabrera was a waste, a 4th outfielder who does not profile nearly as high as the one heading over from the Mutts, in regards to a ceiling. Hughes was the bonafide stud, but as we discussed many times before he has had injury woes more real than bone chips 1000 innings ago.
Kennedy was a 4th starter, which is ironic only in that you are trying to pass off the Met prospects with the same tag as "crap." They are commisserate with Ian Kennedy, my friend, and most scouts, when pressed, I am sure would go with Humber or Mulvey as quickly as Kennedy.
So aside from the Twins costing themselves Hughes (and the future only tells what will become of the handful of pitchers they DID get, window is not closed on them) the packages were similar, even adding another Yankee prospect in the mix they may or may not have had future use for.
Bottom line, Yankees are risking a lot putting all this belief in 3 kids to bolster a staff. As if Andy Pettitte is not on my bad side enough already, his coming back was the final key to not pulling the trigger on this trade. If he stayed home the Yankees would have rushed to do the deal, from what I am reading in more than one place.
BOTTOM LINE - Twins are on the downside of this deal right now. But anyone but an idiot realizes that you can not rate a trade in the days afterwards, especially when you are talking about 18-23 year olds going the other way. Twins should have went with the Yankee package over the Mutt package as Hughes is more a lock than what went from the Mutts, but we dont know what the Twins do that we dont.
This is NOT a Nolan Ryan / Jim Fregosi deal. Stop acting like you know more about this stuff than you do.
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 30, 2008 8:45:03 GMT -5
That's all great for the Mets, but the reason they were able to do so is because the Twins gifted Santana to them, for a package far less than what they were offered from the Yanks and Sox.
The Mets made out like bandits here. They gave up an 18 year old raw talent with high upside, but he's only 18. The second kid hasn't pitched more than 90 innings in pro ball.
The other two max out at #4 starters.
The Yankees could have packaged a deal that good without giving up Hughes OR Mr. Kennedy. They have a several pitchers that project as #3 starters.
That's no longer relevant, because the Mets got the guy, but it's not some slick move by the Mets here. It's that they were able to get Santana for a far lesser cost.
If we're both bidding on a car, and the dealer says that it's $100000 for me, and turns around and gives it to you for $50000, what can I do?
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Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 30, 2008 9:39:46 GMT -5
Tom I have to diasgree..so far every report and pundit I have heard has shit all over the package the Twins received............This would have been like the Yanks getting Santana for Kennedy, Cabrera and Horne (or Marquez).....and most pundits said the Yanks had the best offer because Hughes was the best prospect offered in all the packages and when you deal a player of Santana's magnitude you have to get the best prospect considered to be "fail-safe" or as "fail-safe" as prospects go (as of course there is always a risk). I do agree the Red Sox total packages were better than the Yanks but Hughes was the best player.
No disputing Santana is a superior talent but I am glad the Yanks did not pull the trigger and I am equally happy he is not a Red Sox. You are killing the Yanks for not making the deal but if they did, I bet you'd be hollaring in the salary thread about how the Yankee payroll would be $250 million and the like...............can't have it both ways...
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Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 30, 2008 9:45:20 GMT -5
This is NOT a Nolan Ryan / Jim Fregosi deal.
You are right for now but in 4 years if this board is still going lets chat....LOL
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 30, 2008 9:55:38 GMT -5
I bet you'd be hollaring in the salary thread about how the Yankee payroll would be $250 million and the like...............can't have it both ways...
I already explained this issue, and my feelings on it.
Again, Mets got away lucky cause the Sox and Yankees walked away, and it was either take that package for the Twins or lose Santana with no return. Its still a package that can pay dividends. Sorry, Hughes has potential but he has not proven anything yet.
And I dont care what your sources say, I have more trusted sources and they are not crapping on this nearly as bad.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Jan 30, 2008 10:04:01 GMT -5
No question the reason this deal happened was because the Twins fucked up royally. Mr. Kennedy is NOT a 4th starter. He projects as a #3 or higher. Stop downgrading him. You cannot downgrade the Yankees package to make it what the Mets stole Santana for, and yes, this very well could be a Nolan Ryan for Jim Fregosi deal.
The Twins didn't even do as well as the A's did for Haren.
I don't know who Tom's sources are, but I'll go with Baseball America's headline about the Twins not getting enough any day.
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Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 30, 2008 10:04:19 GMT -5
Do your sources publish anywhere? I only ask cause I'd like to read their take (especially on the Met prospects) as I have yet to read or hear one person not crap on this deal though I and they all agree the Twins had no choice because of the scenario you mentioned with the Sox and Yanks dropping out.......The Twins overplayed their hand and got burned and I agree this is probably the best they could have done given present circumstances but it still doesn't make it a good deal....
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Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 30, 2008 10:05:07 GMT -5
Gotta ask...what sources are those? I haven't seen anything that promotes this as a good deal for the Twins, though I haven't gotten around to reading the Twin Cities papers yet.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Jan 30, 2008 10:11:00 GMT -5
My only positive thought regarding the Twins' end of this is that they are building for the new stadium in a few years. They weren't going to compete with the Tigers and Indians this year anyway, and they had to make a deal. So maybe Gomez turns out to be a good enough CF. He's better in the field than Melky, so that was a better get for them in that respect, though his bat needs work.
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Post by 9 on Jan 30, 2008 10:14:03 GMT -5
That's a very good point because, barring injuries, the Tigers and Indians are going to be sick this year.
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