|
Post by drock2006 on Jan 30, 2008 20:11:04 GMT -5
The truth is, no one knows. Hell, about 5 years ago all I read was how bad the Yankees farm system was. Since then they have developed Cano, Wang, cabrera, Chamberlain and hopefully these young arms will be the real deal.
You really can't judge this trade for a few years..and keep in mind the last time the Twins traded an All Star they ended up with Nathan, Liriano and Bonser and opened up a spot for Mauer. Somewone there knows talent and how to devleop it.
The Mets get a great ace, but lets not rush to judge the Twins haul just yet.
|
|
|
Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 30, 2008 20:21:37 GMT -5
This is different beccause the Twins made this deal because it was the only offer left out there...The Yanks bowed out (in fact the Twins came back last minute to see if the could wriggle Wang and Kennedy instead since Hughes was pulled off the table) and Santana threatened that he would invoke his no trade clause if not dealt now. Those other deals were done on the Twins terms and they obtained the talent they targeted........
|
|
|
Post by drock2006 on Jan 30, 2008 21:35:48 GMT -5
Knoblauch was done on Koblauchs terms and the Twins got Guzman and Milton as well. Not saying these guys are any good, but anyone who pretends to know at this point is just guessing.
I will agree the Twins were banking on a bidding war that never happened....and ended pissing both the yanks and Sox off
|
|
|
Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 30, 2008 21:42:49 GMT -5
I was talking about their more recent deals when they got Liarano and Nathan and the like..........At the time of the Knoblach deal Milton was still a decent prospect.....I am willing to bet none of those three pitchers amount to anything..........
|
|
|
Post by drock2006 on Jan 30, 2008 21:54:54 GMT -5
I will say this..it is funny that the Mets could not get a Beddard deal done with these prospects but got Santana.
who knows...but no matter how the prospects turn out the Mets made the right move. Instead of talking about the collapse , all talk will be about santana.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 31, 2008 7:11:21 GMT -5
I've read that the A's got more for Haren than the Twins did for Santana.
|
|
|
Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 31, 2008 13:14:50 GMT -5
Yes I read the D-Backs got much more and yes the Met package wouldn't get Bedard and the reason was the money you have to pony up to sign Santana..That dimished his trade value...It is one thing to give up prize prospects to get a guy but to give up prize prospects plus fork over $150m is a bit much..............
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 31, 2008 13:16:42 GMT -5
Which is why the Yanks were right to stand pat. The Yanks could have put together a better package without Hughes--and you mentioned it yesterday.
Interesting how the Yanks apparently had the chance to go for Kennedy and Wang, and still turned it down.
|
|
|
Post by thecaptain15 on Jan 31, 2008 13:24:38 GMT -5
From today's NY Post.....
So in an attempt to move the B-plus offers of the Yanks and Red Sox to A-plus, the Twins ended up with a C-minus package from the Mets, the last team standing. This had happened once before. After the 2004 season, the Yanks decided they had the money for either Randy Johnson or Carlos Beltran, and opted for Johnson. Beltran's agent, Scott Boras, then - like Minnesota now - always believed the Yanks would eventually get back into talks. They didn't.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 31, 2008 13:25:46 GMT -5
I've read that the A's got more for Haren than the Twins did for Santana.
A large part of that is cause the team that bought in Haren does not have to pay him a ridiculous amount of money for his services the next few years.
So the D-backs paid the price in talent, and not a crippling amount of money.
Dont you know anything??
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 31, 2008 13:42:16 GMT -5
Yes, and one thing I know is that the Yankees were right to not jump at this deal, and you were not.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jan 31, 2008 15:37:32 GMT -5
As it stands, not only is there a gap between Santana and the Mets on money, but they are WAY off on the number of years and the Mets are looking to load the back-end of his contract with non-guaranteed years.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 31, 2008 15:40:38 GMT -5
Where are you hearing this? From the papers today, it was more of 5 years v. 7 years, and not too much on the money.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jan 31, 2008 15:47:12 GMT -5
ESPN.com is saying that the money is off and the years are not close. Santana wants more years than the Mets want, more money, AND a whole shitload of upfront money to boot.
The Mets are countering with less money AND less money upfront AND a choice of fewer years or more years not garaunteed.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 31, 2008 15:49:24 GMT -5
Should be interesting. I highly doubt he won't be signed. Tomorrow, 5pm. These things go to the wire, but always seem to get done.
|
|
|
Post by grover on Jan 31, 2008 15:52:12 GMT -5
If it meant Wang and Kennedy they were idiots not to ship them off. Wang doesn't have the balls to get it done. When it was on the line he got ROCKED, TWICE!
Fuck him.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jan 31, 2008 16:02:35 GMT -5
I'd actually prefer giving up Wang and Kennedy versus Hughes and Kennedy.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on Jan 31, 2008 16:05:14 GMT -5
I would have been fine giving up either package.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Jan 31, 2008 17:05:12 GMT -5
Santana, at his worst last year, pitched like Wang with more Ks. I would have had no problem with giving up Wang.
|
|
|
Post by grover on Feb 1, 2008 11:12:10 GMT -5
Really, Kenny and Hughes were much but I may have lived with that easily.
Wang and Kennedy should be landing in Minnesota by now. A rotation of Stanana/Joba/Hughes would have been awesome.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 1, 2008 11:18:53 GMT -5
I just see more upside in Hughes than Wang right now. The difference is that Wang is there already and solid, but Hughes has the potential to be at the next level. I think Wang is as good as he is going to get, which is pretty good.
There are no guarantees, but wow the Twins are the losers in the trade they made.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on Feb 1, 2008 11:24:30 GMT -5
I just see more upside in Hughes than Wang right now
Eh, you and everyone else in the world.
Wang is severely overrated by many. Too hittable, you saw the real Wang in the playoffs last year. We have seen the best we will get out of him.
If the Twins would have accepted Wang (and I am sure they did not want him, which is why his name was not mentioned in leiu of Hughes' at any point) I am sure it would have been done.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Feb 1, 2008 11:41:46 GMT -5
His name was not mentioned in lieu of Hughes but it was mentioned in lieu of Kennedy.
Seems as though as interest from the Sox and Yanks wained, the Twinkies tried to dangle Santana in front of them in desperation moves, and Wang/Hughes was one of the packages the Twins asked for at the midnight hour.
Clearly Hughes was the holdup. Brian Cashman has basically put his job in the hands of Hughes and Joba. I don't think anyone is expecting an epic year from Kennedy.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 1, 2008 12:29:29 GMT -5
Enough with the Wang bashing. You make him out to be one of the worst pitchers in the league. Wang had 2 bad playoff games. That is not the real Wang. I didn't hear of anyone saying Wang/Hughes. Hughes was off the table. I wish I could find the article that talked about Wang/Kennedy, but there are so many articles on this that I won't bother.
Maybe I will, but I doubt it.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Feb 1, 2008 12:38:51 GMT -5
Balls, the Twins mentioned Wang Hughes, not the Yankees. It was a midnight hour test of the waters with the Yankees before they went through with the Mets deal - watch Hot Stove.
|
|
|
Post by thecaptain15 on Feb 1, 2008 12:48:47 GMT -5
From what I read and heard before they accepted the Mets offer they called the Yanks and asked if they would do a package headlined by Wang and Kennedy and the Yanks turned them down....
Tom, I know you do not like Wang but he has won 19 games each of the last two years..How many more games would Santana win a year maybe 3 (which wouold make him a 22 game winner).....Now I know Wang's last playoffs were disasterious but is it worth $20M more a year (assuming Wang gets $4m and Santana $24M - 150 M over 6 seasons) or is it worth it to see if Wang rebounds (his playoffs before that were not bad) or if Hughes, Kennedy or someone else emerge and also have that money to get other players?? I know you can argue either way(and I know where you would stand) but I am glad the way it worked out, all things being equal and he didn't end up with the Red Sox.......
Now if we could have gotten him with let's say a Kennedy, Marquez, Horne, Melky or Jackson in some combination (which I think is still better then the Mets offer) then I say go for it.....
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 1, 2008 12:51:24 GMT -5
Captain read the same thing I did. I haven't heard Wang/Hughes anywhere.
If the Yanks walked away from Hughes/Kennedy, it doesn't make sense for the Twins to up the offer.
|
|
|
Post by thecaptain15 on Feb 1, 2008 12:52:37 GMT -5
I also heard it on ESPN the other night. It was one of Gammons, Olney or Kurtchin..Don't remember which....
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Feb 1, 2008 12:58:02 GMT -5
Maybe I got the Hughes/Kennedy part mixed up, but the point is, the Twins did make last ditch efforts to lure the Yanks into a deal that included Wang.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 1, 2008 13:34:47 GMT -5
They did, with Kennedy/Wang--which would have been a much better package than the Mets sent over.
|
|