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Post by thecaptain15 on Nov 14, 2007 16:21:47 GMT -5
No way I trade Cano he is our (not so distant) future #3 or 5 hitter.....
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Post by mac0822 on Nov 19, 2007 8:41:15 GMT -5
Sid Hartman has a tidbit towards the end of his column today: The Twins have made a five-year, $93 million offer for Johan Santana. The source of this is not the Twins, but rather Hartman hearing "word in baseball circles." The $18.6 million average annual value would surpass that of Barry Zito, though Zito's deal was for seven years.
Santana is entering his age 29 season in 2008, so this contract would keep him locked up through age 35.
While Johan could probably do better on the open market, if he really wants to stay in Minnesota, he should consider this offer -- that is, if this offer actually exists. As a free agent, he could likely command seven years and north of $20 million annually.
Please note that the following is just me throwing numbers out there, and that I don't necessarily think that Santana is in some kind of decline. But his batting average, OBP, and SLG against have risen from year to year since 2004. He also gave us a career-high 33 homers in 2007 in 219 innings, his lowest total since he was split between the rotation and bullpen in 2003. His WHIP also broke 1.00 for the first time since 2003 (oh, heavens no, not above 1.00!).
The Red Sox, Dodgers, and Yankees have been the most actively linked to Santana, but every team likely has some level of interest in trading for the two-time Cy Young winner.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 19, 2007 10:31:49 GMT -5
If that offer is true, it would be a hell of a move by the Twins. Keep their ace, pay him fair market value, and they don't even set a new bar. Santana, if he's interested in making every last dollar, should decline it. But then again, what IF Santana really does have an injury concern? He'd be throwing away nearly $100 million, and lowering his value for next year.
Hell of a decision he has to make.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 24, 2007 18:57:37 GMT -5
Johan Santana: Gives Premission for Trade RotoWire.com Staff - RotoWire.com Saturday, November 24, 2007
Update: Santana has given the Twins permission to seek a trade after he asked for a six-year contract extension and the Twins only offered a four-year extension, the Minneapolis Star Tribune reports.
Recommendation: It sounds like negotiations on an extension have stalled and the Twins will move to trading him next week. Santana has a full no-trade clause, but will let the Twins shop him at the winter meetings after he rejected a five-year, $93 million extension. The offer wouldn't have changed the final year of his current deal, so it was in effect a four-year, $80 million extension.
I went looking for this after a source I know let me know the Yankees are back in the ballgame, and its considered "likely" around the team that Santana will be heading our staff next year.
Sign me up.
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Post by grover on Nov 24, 2007 19:19:43 GMT -5
And you know why? Because as much as the Yankees can make this deal happen, so can the Red Sox. There is no way you can sit by and watch your arch nemesis trade for the best pitcher in baseball when you could have gotten in the mix and offered up a deal.
This is a risk worth taking.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 24, 2007 19:30:33 GMT -5
Don't you think that throwing away the future is a lot just to cockblock Boston? How many times has cockblocking Boston helped the Yanks?
What if Santana comes here and tanks?
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Post by grover on Nov 24, 2007 19:47:19 GMT -5
And what is he comes here and continues to be the best pitcher in Baseball? There is more evidence showing that the Yankees young starters may not be the answer than there is that Santana will tank.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 24, 2007 19:48:48 GMT -5
Not exactly. The young starters are all projection. Santana's second half was very run of the mill, and Santana has a history of elbow trouble. Plus, he's one year from free agency. He isn't WORTH the package the Twins would want. Seriously, you'd give up Cano AND Hughes? I'd rather go into the season with them than with Santana.
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Post by grover on Nov 24, 2007 20:04:29 GMT -5
Yeah, a history of elbow trouble and all it's gotten him is 2 Cy Youngs, a triple crown, leading the league in strikeouts, 04-06, among other things.
Yeah, he had a bad 2nd half. So? Remember all those times people said Pettitte's elbow was going to blow up on him?
This is a risk worth taking. This is not a trade for Rick Honeycutt, it's for the best pitcher in baseball.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 24, 2007 20:10:18 GMT -5
Pettitte only cost us one year and money. He is currently NOT the best pitcher in baseball. Even if he's the same guy, trading Cano AND Hughes would be asinine. Why not throw in Jeter and ARod while you're at it. Just like other teams don't exist to give away all their great players for nothing, the Yankees do not exist to give away their young talent for a risk like that.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 24, 2007 20:20:05 GMT -5
Santana's second half was very run of the mill,
So run of the mill it finished his season ERA at a whopping 3.33
So run of the mill he broke a Minny strikeout record with 17 in one game in August.
This "injured elbow" of his had him pitch 33 starts, and 219 innings. Ouch! Oh, and he struck out 235 (almost 5 times as many as he walked) and gave up nearly 40 less hits than innings pitched.
Here was his second half line...
98.0 88 47 44 22 110 - 4.04 ERA
Damn that "run of the mill" 2nd half!!!!!!!!!
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Post by grover on Nov 24, 2007 20:31:34 GMT -5
Yeah, really Balls. You railed the Beckett deal and said that Boston will get a championship out of Beckett, which happened, but if anything he was run of the mil since 06. How is it that you can say a run of the mil guy who at the time might have just been a guy who had one magic year would deliver a championship yet the best pitcher in the game may bust?
And we'll see when it comes to deals what the Twins ask for. These things aren't set in stone.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 24, 2007 20:32:06 GMT -5
Again, his SECOND half was run of the mill, with an ERA of 4.04. Who cares how many Ks he has when he's giving up runs? You would trade a .300 hitter, with 20 HR potential at a weak position, with no replacement, and one of the top pitching prospects in the game, for a guy who is going to cost $140 million over 7 years, and is showing signs he may tank?
Glad you're not the GM.
And Hughes and Cano are already MLB players, and good ones. They aren't AA prospects.
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 24, 2007 20:40:14 GMT -5
Hughes is NOT a good MLB player. He had an ERA half a run higher than Santana's SECOND HALF ERA for his whole tenure. He also walked 29 while striking out 58, while Santana walked 52 while striking out 235.
You dont know where those runs came from in that second half. May have been a couple of bloops. Dont forget he gave up 10 less hits than innings, and walked a minimal amount. I dont need to look at the runs when the other numbers are so strong.
But I get it...you dont want him, cause he is not white.
And Hughes is, and Kennedy is, and Joba is a NATIVE American.
Once again your racism moves over from the wrestling boards here.
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Post by grover on Nov 24, 2007 20:45:04 GMT -5
LOLLOLOLOLOL!! What the fuck kind of logic is that? By that account Hughes has shown that he's injury prone because he was out for 3 months.
Dude you are really something else. I can understand JUST saying Hughes and Cano may be too much to give up, but trying to make some injury case seems ridiculous when you have no proof of it other than a bad 2nd half in a year when he was outspoken about being frustrated about how cheap the Twins were.
I'm glad you're not the GM either. You would have traded Pujols away after the first month and told everyone he was washed up and had a history of injury problems.
Seriously, WHO said he's had a history of elbow problems?
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Post by sancho231 on Nov 24, 2007 20:55:49 GMT -5
tyou would trade a .300 hitter, with 20 HR potential at a weak position, with no replacement, and one of the top pitching prospects in the game, for a guy who is going to cost $140 million over 7 years, and is showing signs he may ank?
yes, right now id do that. and since when is Santana showing signs of tanking?
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 24, 2007 21:13:43 GMT -5
Hughes was hurt for a good chunk of the year. Once Eiland straightened him out, he was 3-0 with a 2.73 ERA.
Hughes and Cano are MUCH too much for Santana. And it's very easy to say, "I'm glad you're not the GM," and then make up something that I never said, but that doesn't change that trading away your future for a guy who is one year away from free agency and has an elbow surgery on his resume, and coming off a second half no better than Wang, is just stupid.
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Post by mac0822 on Nov 24, 2007 21:45:38 GMT -5
If it would ONLY take Hughes & Cano, you jump on it in a NY minute. Hughes could shit the bed just as easy as do well. Plus Cano could be replaced with a guy like Orlando Hudson. Sure, his bat wouldn't compare, but fuck. Do you really NEED Cano's bat? Hudson plays gold glove D too.
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 24, 2007 23:33:29 GMT -5
Hughes was hurt for a good chunk of the year
Since when does that matter? You discount that whenever Giambi's name comes up.
Also, you are giving us 3-0 and an ERA under 3??? That small a sample? You're an ass.
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Post by grover on Nov 25, 2007 1:14:01 GMT -5
If the elbow was such a huge problem, why have the Twins been giving him offers sheets and uping the ante to close to $100 million?
Why would there be a frenzy by all these teams?
And Balls, can you please explain to me what sort of elbow surgery he had?
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 25, 2007 2:02:56 GMT -5
And Balls, can you please explain to me what sort of elbow surgery he had?
It was serious stuff!
It was the kind of elbow surgery that sadly only lets you pitch 228, 231, 233, and 219 innings each of the past four seasons.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 25, 2007 9:30:06 GMT -5
Jason Giambi is a steroid freak, a fat fuck, who no longer has the skills necessary to succeed in the major leagues. Phil Hughes is 21 years old, with a 95 MPH fastball, and is one of the top prospects in baseball. You can't compare the two without looking stupid. So keep doing it.
Santana had elbow surgery a few years back. The fact is, he did not have a good year in comparison to past years, notably due to a second half that was not that great. Would I want him on the Yankees? Sure. But not at the cost of Hughes and especially not at the cost of Hughes AND someone like Cano. That's just stupid.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 25, 2007 10:30:17 GMT -5
Santana had elbow surgery a few years back
Please fill us in on this supposed "elbow surgery."
You know, to go back to the Red Sox thing. The Red Sox have a healthy crop of young talent they too can send to Minny for this guy. So while you balk and whimper, the Sox can send a package of youngsters over and throw Santana at us a handful of times a year, when they are not throwing Beckett, Schilling, or Dice-K at us.
I think that would be when the fact that "we did not go out and get the best pitcher in the fucking game" would slap you into reality.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 25, 2007 10:42:03 GMT -5
So your style of running a team would be to throw away everything to cockblock the Red Sox. Genius. And then what happens if Santana doesn't produce in NY, where they don't have as good a defense behind him as they do in Minnesota?
As for his surgery, it was in 2003. Look it up yourself.
No player is worth that kind of package--especially when he is unsigned and has a no-trade. He's looking for $25 million a year.
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Post by grover on Nov 25, 2007 11:39:31 GMT -5
No Balls, we want YOU to look it up and explain it to us. I really don't think you know what kind of surgery he had.
Want to know what he had? He had a few bone chips removed. Go look it up. Then, go look up what he's done since he's had his surgery, and explain to me how it's hampered him.
You've been going batshit about it and you didn't even what was done. You keep saying 'surgery' and when asked to be specific you said 'Go look it up' AKA 'I really don't know the details, all that I know is that he had some sort of surgery.' If you did know, you would have mentioned it.
There's been endless talk about this on the radio,, articles, you name it, and there has been little to no talk of an elbow problem. The only problem is the Dodgers, Angels, Yanks and Sox figuring out how to out bid each other.
You do not let your division rivals coming off a World Series title grab the best pitcher in the game to add to their staff when you could have made the same deal and addressed the biggest issue on the club. Santana, Wang, Joba, Kennedy, and Mussina is worth taking the risk if it means we have to see Santana, Beckett, Matuzaka, Schilling.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 25, 2007 11:43:51 GMT -5
You do let your division rivals grab that pitcher if it means hurting your own team in the long run. What you don't do is hurt your team to cockblock your division rival. The fact that I was able to tell you exactly WHEN the surgery was should clue you in that I knew WHAT it was. Bone chips being removed is not exactly a skinned knee.
He had a lousy second half by his standards, and certainly not one worth giving up the kind of package you people are looking to throw away.
Boston would have to commit ARod level money to make that deal AND give up THEIR future. If that's what it takes, let them.
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Post by grover on Nov 25, 2007 12:00:48 GMT -5
Oh please, you didn't know shit. You probably read 'Santana had elbow surgery in 2003' from the baseball thread on the 'My Two Dads' message board and have been repeating it constantly for some insane reason. If you knew you would have said so when I asked.
Saying Cano and Hughes may be too much is fine. If you kept it at that, I don't think I'd see anything wrong with your point of view. But you're really trying to make something out of bone chips and one bad 2nd half, and it's pretty fucking stupid. Actually it's VERY fucking stupid, because you're the only one saying it out of all the people talking about it thus far, and everyone has been talking about this over the past week.
Bone chips isn't a skinned knee but it also isn't post car crash reconstructive surgery. You may b right though, since he's only been the best pitcher in Baseball since he's had the surgery. Who knows what he could have been if he had a clean bill!!!!!!!
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 25, 2007 12:08:51 GMT -5
Once again, you are talking out of your bunghole. Sorry. All the name calling in the world will not change that this package is way too much, and there is a risk in Santana, who is coming off a bad half and is an injury risk. He is not the best pitcher in baseball, and was no better than Wang in the second half last year--not worth giving up the entire team for.
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Post by grover on Nov 25, 2007 12:26:12 GMT -5
If Santana is not the best pitcher in Baseball, who is?
What is the risk of injury based on? Surgery he had 4years ago now and what will be 5 years when the season starts, which hasn't hampered him a single bit? Can you show me where his 2nd half decline was due to that elbow problem? Yeah, what a risk that was that the year after he had it done he won 20 games. LOL!!
Hey, could it be his decline was a bit mental? He was openly pissed at the Twins, and players are effected by their mental status, Mr. I went 0-6 in the softball game the year everyone was jumping down my throat to the point where I quit section39.com.
The Red Sox gave up a player who has the potential to be one of the top five hitters in the game for Beckett. It paid off in a title, and it may give them more than one. Sometimes you have to take a risk. Now I'm not saying it's a no-brainer, but I think the Yankees should entertain the idea of getting the best pitcher in baseball.
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 25, 2007 12:29:21 GMT -5
Currently, the best pitchers in baseball are Peavy, Beckett and Sabbathia, all of whom had better years than Santana.
So now you realize your argument is so weak, you're bringing up a softball game from 2 years ago. Ok. But that still won't make this a deal that isn't risky, especially with the package and cost involved.
Beckett will not cost as much as Santana, either in players given up or in dollars.
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