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Post by 9 on Sept 22, 2006 14:11:22 GMT -5
What was so wrong with Wally Pipp?
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 22, 2006 14:28:42 GMT -5
Nothing, until you compare him with the guy that replaced him.
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Post by grover on Sept 22, 2006 14:32:08 GMT -5
Giambi is a proven horrific 1B. Sheff can do no worse. And Giambi's bat is NOT that big, even healthy. The guy hit .250 for the YEAR, and that's with a .344 April that artificially pumped that average up a good 10 points. He's one of the weakest bats in the lineup, who just happens to really connect on those rare occasions when he connects. Melky is more likely to get a hit than Giambi. So is every regular in the lineup. In reality, Sheffield shouldn't come back. But if he does, it's Giambi, and his limp wrist, that should ride the pine over a healthy 21 year old that is the best OFer on the team and hits .285. Wait, how does have a good month artificially pump an Avg.? If that's the case ten wouldn't the bad month do the same? LOL!! If Giambi is the worst bat in the lineup why's his OBP super high and why does the defense shift for him? LOL!!!
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 22, 2006 14:35:19 GMT -5
Dont forget, Grover - Cabrera is a better offensive threat than Giambi!
A guy that may hit .280 with 10 homers and 50 RBIS in a season tops a .250 hitter with 45 homers and 120 RBIs every time!
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 22, 2006 14:40:02 GMT -5
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Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 188 Location: Long Island Re: General Yankee Notes « Reply #119 on Today at 3:09pm »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus christ, the AVG, give it a rest. Look at the OBP doofus, Melkys done great but hes a bench guy in the playoffs. Stop letting your hatred for Giambi cloud your though process for a better yankee lineup. Giambi has produced way more than Melky. I don't give a shit if Melky gets 3 million hits in a season, Giambi is on base more, he works counts, he gets on for other guys to produce. Melky has done that, but your more confident in him this year than Giambi, who really if you think about it hasn;t been horrible in the playoffs. Melky gets the bench, he's lucky he's even seeing post season time let alone regular playing time. You have to go with experience.
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Post by grover on Sept 22, 2006 14:41:51 GMT -5
45 Hrs and 120 RBIs with a bad wrist. LOL!!
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 22, 2006 15:27:51 GMT -5
Do you understand that a walk is NOT as good as a hit? James doesn't, but that's not to be expected.
With the game on the line, I would take Cabrera over Giambi any day. He's a .250 hitter. AVERAGE matters. It tells you the percentage that the guy will get a base hit. Stop treating it like a meaningless stat.
Of all the people in the lineup, Jason Giambi is the least likely to get a hit, by far (barring a WS game in an NL park).
He may have power but he's got nothing else. And he also does not have 45 HRs and 120 RBIs. Hell, he only has 7 hits in September. 0 HR, 3 RBI.
He stinks.
You have to be an idiot to think that Giambi is more of a threat than Melky right now. But then again...
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 22, 2006 15:32:56 GMT -5
We already tattered your theories showing that Giambi scores runs at an exhorbinant pace, cause he simply GETS ON BASE. So in that respect a walk IS as good as a hit, especially in the Yankee lineup. In case you forgot, the point of the game is to score more runs than the other team.
I am sure Joe Torre would appreciate you calling him an idiot for disagreeing with you.
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 22, 2006 15:39:11 GMT -5
Joe Torre sticks with "his guys." Right or wrong. You have not tattered anything other than your own arguments.
Getting on base doesn't mean shit if you can't run or don't move anyone over.
A walk is NOT as good as a hit. Hell, sometimes a walk isn't even as good as an OUT. Runner on third, 1 out. Giambi walks. Next guy wraps into a DP. A flyball gets a run in.
Giambi is the least likely to get a hit on the TEAM. Giambi/Matsui/Sheff will not help the team win as much as Melky/Matsui/(Giambi OR Sheff).
You lose defense AND offense based on the unlikely shot at a HR. Sheffield replacing Giambi makes the lineup better. You get the same power, and someone MORE likely to get a hit.
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Post by grover on Sept 22, 2006 15:41:01 GMT -5
Hey, you cant deny the fact he was getting better and doing fine before the wrist injury. If a hit is better than a walk he must have been doing fine since he has 35+ HRs and 100+ RBIs. If he was not getting thses hits, where are these runs coming from?
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 22, 2006 15:47:26 GMT -5
All I can say is that he had a decent April, and a decent August. With him, it's always something. When you bat with Jeter and Damon on base all the time, you will get the RBI. Yes, he has power. But he's an all or nothing guy. The guy has more RBI than hits right now. 103 hits on the year. Great, he hit some HRs. But overall, guys like that, low average/high strikeout guys, tend to fade in the playoffs. And right now, he's not even that. He can't hit at all.
How can you not look at him now and think he should be in this lineup? You have to figure he will sit a few days to TRY to rest that wrist. He may not physically be ABLE to play the field. He stinks in the field healthy.
Seriously--why keep an injured guy who can't hit in the lineup, and not just put Sheff in, and keep your defense better with Melky? It's not like Melky is all glove. The man hit well, and brings that energy that rookies give.
People like Melky have the same fire you saw when they were winning in the late 1990s. It would be a HUGE mistake to take him out.
I don't even care if you keep Giambi and sit Sheff. I just think that of the group, one of those two needs to go, not Melky or Matsui.
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 22, 2006 15:48:08 GMT -5
Exactly you fucking idiot, a walk is as good as a hit, how could you say that and call yourself a baseball fan? Just to support your own insane theory based on your disliking of Giambi. I knew you were always crazy with your baseball thinkings, but I no longer have respect for you as a baseball fan. No person, who likes the game of baseball can say a hit is more important than a walk....ITS A MAN ON FUCKING BASE!!!!!
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Post by grover on Sept 22, 2006 15:50:04 GMT -5
And EXTRAbasehit is better than a walk, but a walk is as good as a hit.
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Post by ajfreakz on Sept 22, 2006 15:51:17 GMT -5
the guys that follow jason when he is in the lineup are as follows...
posada cano matsui sheffield
if Giambi gets a hit, walk or hit by pitch its doesnt fucking matter as long as he gets on base WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 22, 2006 16:00:58 GMT -5
He's MSB, that's why it's difficult for him to understand.
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 22, 2006 16:08:45 GMT -5
If you think a walk is as good as a single, you don't the game at all.
A walk will not move a runner from 1st to third. A walk will not bring a runner from third home without bases loaded, and then, only one. You are not in scoring position from second base with a walk. You have that runner on third, and walk, don't get the run in, you set up a force for a potential DP or final out. There's a reason they have something called an intentional walk. There are cases when a walk is even better for the defense than an out.
A walk, especially from that part of the lineup, passes the buck. You may not have failed in your job, but you don't accomplish it.
I realize you need to just disagree for the sake of disagreeing, but with the exception of James, I think you can get it.
AJ, Giambi passing the buck to the rest of the lineup doesn't accomplish HIS job.
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Post by ajfreakz on Sept 22, 2006 16:13:08 GMT -5
YES but in THIS LINEUP ..there are so many guys on this team who can get the extra basehit that not everyone is going to have to do it every game.. if Jason was still on the A's then sure the guy would have an issue, but there is so much talent on this team that NO MATTER WHO COMES UP THEY ARE A THREAT. if we score 5+ runs in the postseason we wont be stopped...
sorry but you really need to rethink your baseball knowledge.. because most sports writers and people involved in baseball would agree with all of us..and not with you
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 22, 2006 16:20:34 GMT -5
Thing is, who is the truest, weakest link in that lineup? And by lineup, I mean the whole package, not JUST hitting.
In the postseason, hitting tends to fall victim to good pitching. Giambi rarely gets the job done now. In the postseason, it will likely be worse. Not definite. For all I know, he will hit .500. But the odds say he won't.
In the playoffs, you need your BEST defense out there.
What does Giambi bring to the table? Only one thing--occasional pop. Cross him out, and replace him with Sheff, who has arguably MORE power, and hits the ball more. You improve your lineup. Take Melky out, and you lose 30 points in average, gain power, but have a noticeable defensive drop. You remove your best OF arm which gives opposing runners an extra base, and you lose range, as Matsui simply isn't as good out there as Melky.
Melky does not hurt the team offensively. It's not like he is Bubba Crosby. Melky is a legit regular.
Having this lineup, if anything, means you have the luxury of sacrificing some HRs for higher average and defense because you aren't really giving up power when you write Sheff's name instead of Giambi's.
And let's not forget the MOST important thing--Giambi is hurt and can't hit right now. Giambi was solid in 2 months--August and April. But that wrist has turned him into the worst he has been all season, and that's saying a lot. Now, he's NOT even a .250 hitter with pop.
Right now, even Melky is a greater power threat. Maybe he heals a bit in 2 weeks, but they are talking offseason surgery.
Of the 9 guys, Giambi is the weakest and most expendable--if you insist on playing Sheff at all.
Again, it's losing Melky in the lineup that hurts the team more than Giambi BEING there.
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 22, 2006 16:54:14 GMT -5
Balls, I understand. But you are fucking clueless if you think down one or two in the 9th and a walk doesn't help, or count as much as a hit, then rethink your approach to baseball. A walk is as good as a single, it may not advance a runner to third but runs get walked in sometimes, you're telling me that's less important than hitting a single and scoring a run? It's the same fucking thing. I'm sorry you want the game to be 17 nothing in the first inning and everyone needs to hit doubles or homers. I'm sorry you think AVG means everything when evaluating worth of a player to this team. I'm also sorry you're not in 96 and there won't be a championship won with mostly homegrown talent. If you want to admit it or not, my grandmother who was watching the Dodgers in Brooklyn before YOU were born would say the same exact thing. Fucking yankee fans like you make me sick.
What's next, Johnson has a high ERA so he should come out of the bullpen and fucking Karstens should start you nimrod?
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 22, 2006 17:57:31 GMT -5
James, a walk is ONLY as good as a SINGLE, when no one is on base. That's it. A walk that doesn't score a run v. a single that does score a run? I'll take that single 100 times out of 100.
Stop trying to be someone else with the "Yankee fans like you" shit. You're an idiot. What the hell do the Dodgers have to do with anything?
The bottom line is that your grandmother, who watched the Dodgers in Brooklyn, would know that you don't bench the best defensive OFer on the team, when he hits .285 and is 21 years old, over a guy who can't hit the ball at all.
Giambi doesn't even have power right now.
And don't compare Johnson to Karstens. If Karstens pitched solid baseball in the rotation, all year long, and had an ERA in the low 4s, you might have a pitching comparison to Melky.
The difference is that I believe that talent, not big names, should play.
Melky being benched is going to make the team worse. If Sheffield HAS to play, the only person who should be giving up time in the lineup is the weakest link, which is Giambi. Otherwise, Sheff should be pinch hitting.
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 22, 2006 19:18:15 GMT -5
Dodgers have nothing to do with it, my point was that just old school baseball fans such as my family who were brooklyn dodger fans know a walk is as good as a hit. And you will get the stupid yankee fan shit for as long as I get written off as an idiot. Count to ten and seriously ask yourself how, unless it's an extra basehit, is a hit just as more than a bloop single? It counts as a man on, so that when this lineup gets an extra basehit it will be just as good and count on the scoreboard just the same as if Giambi got a single or drew a walk.
And your whole argument is shit when you say the weakest link is Giambi. How do you go with a guy who has ZERO playoff experience compared to a guy who is guaranteed to at the very least have a good at bat? Melky will start a playoff game, only it will be some other season.
If thinking a walk is just as good as a hit, and wanting more run production this playoffs with Giambi starting makes me an idiot, give me the dunce cap cause I don't wanna be smart. I go with the better bat and experience over a tiny upgrade, a tiny miniscule, iffernce or downgrade in D. Really think about it, with this lineup, a barely noticable differnce in D is less important than scoring runs.
You worry abut D and use that as an excuse cause you hate Giambi and want him off the team so you refuse to admit that the man does contribute, and at time has done so more than A rod, who mind you isn't having a great year defensivly, are you all for starting Cairo and making A rod DH then? Should Craig Wilson start game 7 of the world series over Giambi or anyone else who isnt up to par on D?
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 22, 2006 19:26:02 GMT -5
A walk is NOT as good as a hit. It's called a cliche. I just gave several reasons why that is the case. You are the stupid Yankee fan. I understand the game far better than you will on your best day, even though that's not saying much.
A bloop single is better than a hit. Runner on third, two outs. Bloop single scores the run. Walk does not. Any questions?
Giambi is guaranteed to have a good at bat? Do you watch him? Have you seen him in the playoffs? When facing a good pitcher, he stinks. When facing a BAD pitcher, he stinks.
Melky earned the spot. He is BETTER defensively, and you GIVE that guy the spot UNTIL he tanks. He earned the shot.
You don't have to worry about being smart. It will never happen. You actually think Giambi will mean run production. Have you watched a Yankee game in the last month? YOU would be more likely to drive in the run.
And if you think Melky is a small bump in defense, you're on crack.
Cairo and Wilson are not everyday playoffs. ARod is better than Cairo defensively by the way, but while Wilson is better than Giambi defensively, he is NOT a starter. Melky is. Follow the team and you might see that.
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 22, 2006 19:47:47 GMT -5
"I understand the game far better than you will on your best day, even though that's not saying much. "
Now your lying because your the dummy who thinks a walk isn't as good as a single.
"A bloop single is better than a hit. Runner on third, two outs. Bloop single scores the run. Walk does not. Any questions?"
Except I never said that I said if Giambi draws a walk and someone else drives him in some way or another, a blooper doesn't mean more than a walk, it's the same, it's a man on first. Of course I'd like doubles and all that shit, but if we need a man on I'll take a walk, anyway to get the runner on.
"Melky earned the spot. He is BETTER defensively, and you GIVE that guy the spot UNTIL he tanks. He earned the shot. "
Giambi hasn't tanked once offensivlly, despite how much you put his AVG under the microscope. I go with the better bat than a tiny upgrade in the outfeild where we DON'T need any help. You're going to start Melky instead of Matsui? What are you smoking and can I have some?
"Cairo and Wilson are not everyday playoffs. ARod is better than Cairo defensively by the way, but while Wilson is better than Giambi defensively, he is NOT a starter. Melky is. Follow the team and you might see that."
Talk about missing the point. And you're right, I've been watching the other New York Yankees, the one with Polka Dots instead of pinstipes. I'd ask you to think straight but you have your head so far up your ass that's as impossible as Melky starting a playoff game.
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 22, 2006 20:16:59 GMT -5
You would too if you understood the game.
What the next person does is irrelevant. We're talking that particular at bat. That player. The hit is better than the walk. The ONLY time the walk is as good as a hit is the situation where no one is on and it's a single.
Have you watched a game all season? Matsui would be the DH, Melky would be the leftfielder. And the difference in ability isn't tiny. If you watched the game, you would know that. Melky is among the league leaders in OF assists, even spending a month and a half in the minors. This isn't a minor change. It's a major one. You want that for a guy who has hit .235 over 83 percent of the season? That's 5 months.
And thus you concede defeat in this argument. You're reduced to insults. Makes sense. You sure don't know baseball.
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 23, 2006 10:13:06 GMT -5
Uh huh, cause you weren't the first oerson to use insults or call into question if I even watched games. You even said what I've been saying the ENTIRE time, "The ONLY time the walk is as good as a hit is the situation where no one is on and it's a single" I don't agree with you it's the ONLY time but other than that, that's exactly what I;ve been saying. See you expect a xtra basehit or a fucking homerun every single at bat, and it can't happen. In the 9th inning down one, of course a double is better in that situation but I'd still take a walk cause thwn there's a man on. So that when that double does come, maybe there's two guys one instead of one, cause we all know how terrible it is to have more than one baserunner on.
And again, shove both their avgs up your ass cause I'd take obp over avg in a situation between a proven fuckinh hitter and a rookie. I don't know why you have a complex that I never watch game cause I've known Melky leads in outfeild assist, but it doesn't measure up in the postseason. I want veterans in there over a fucking rookie who's had a great year but who's to say he'd handle the pressure of postseason well?
Bottom line is your hatred for Giambi and false sense of yankee pride is the only driving factor behind your assanine argument. You're a double standard cause here you are touting Melkys horn and if he sucks in the playoffs you're gonna want him sent back to the minors. I can't wait for the playoffs when Giambi gets a walk then gets driven in cause of the walk, cause it's the same fucking thing and what are you going to be, pissed off they scored because it wasn't a hit?No you're gong to cheer cause IT CAN LEAD TO A RUN, so what's the harm if he walks and gets on base more? But you'll never admit it because you're a numbers guy and sorry, it always doesn't come down to numbers.
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 23, 2006 10:30:41 GMT -5
It's not an insult to question if you watched the games, when you seem to be implying that Giambi is some sort of superstar. He isn't. It's not an insult to question whether you watch the games when you imply that Melky is only a marginal improvement over Matsui, when it's a MAJOR difference.
If you don't realize that batting average is important, then one has to question if you even understand what the stat is other than something that flashes on the screen.
Nowhere did I say that I expect an extra basehit every time. But to make the comment MORE specific, a walk is not as good as a SINGLE, except when there are no runners on base. That's the only time. A guy in the middle of the lineup that doesn't get hits is a waste, no matter WHAT his OBP is--especially if he can't run.
If there's one thing Melky has PROVEN is that in 2006, he is more likely to get a hit than Giambi when you need it. We don't need a slow guy drawing a walk in the middle of the lineup. We need a guy who can hit the ball.
You don't seem to get that an outfielder with an arm is an asset to the team. An outfielder with range can catch balls that wouldn't normally be caught. DEFENSE wins championships, and you don't make your team weaker defensively--especially when you don't need to lose offense to do so.
The Yankees would STRENGTHEN their team with Sheffield at first and Giambi on the bench, ESPECIALLY since he is injured (a fact you may not know) and has no power anyway.
Don't predict what I will think about Melky if he tanks in the playoffs. You can't even get your own thoughts straight.
If Giambi draws a walk with a runner on third and one out, and the next guy hits into a DP, that walk meant nothing. Not only will the batter who hit into the DP have failed, but Giambi will have failed too. I realize you don't get that. But that won't change anything.
Yes, I'm a numbers guy, and like it or not, you can't dismiss numbers and situations. The Yankees will be weaker with Melky on the bench. That is a fact. I'm not saying they will automatically lose. I'm not saying Giambi will bat .000. Maybe he WILL get a big hit. I hope so. If he does, I'll cheer. In the playoffs, all that matters is winning. But that won't make it the right call.
The Yankees are worse without Melky in the OF than they are with him there. That's the bottom line.
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 23, 2006 11:08:28 GMT -5
But you read too into, I never said these things weren't important, I was implying not as important as you seem to think they are. No shit a 250 avg sucks, but how bad is it if his production numbers are through the roof and his obp is so high. So what he isn't hitting for AVG, it still seems he gets on base a shit load of times a game. And I'm only putting giambi on the same platform you are with Melky. I also understand that it's an upgeade with Melky in left, compared to Matsui by individual position, but I was saying as a whole. As a whole having Melky in left compared to Matsui is a marginal difference, yes an upgrade, but at what cost to have Matsui DHing and Giambi out all together. It makes no sense to me, if I'm an idiot because I don't think the MSB style, than I don't wannna be smart. I'd rather have a guy who gets on base and scores runs than having a better glove at ONE position in the outfeild.
My personal opinion, the outfeild will be Matsui Damon and Abreu as it should. Even next year cause I think Sheff is gone, he should sart packing now, get a head start and maybe he can leave with a ring. Melky only played cause the roster was so depleted. Sure it's a loss of a good arm in the outfeild but you can't win a game without scoring runs, no matter how many you keep off.
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 23, 2006 15:57:34 GMT -5
His production numbers are not through the roof. Anyone, even a .250 hitter, would drive in 100 runs when they bat all the time with Jeter and/or Damon on base. Hitting 35 HRs isn't that big of a deal anymore today, but even so, it means that when he makes contact, he hits it well. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen OFTEN enough to justify putting him in the lineup while benching Melky, Sheff, or Matsui. All three of those guys will help the team more.
Melky in left over Matsui is NOT a marginal difference. It's fairly large one. Matsui is a better power hitter than Melky.
But Matsui and Melky shouldn't be the ones competing. The outfield of Matsui/Damon/Abreu is NOT as solid as the OF of Melky/Damon/Abreu.
It's not as defensively sound. Would I take Matsui's bat over Melky's? Yes. And that's why Matsui should be the DH. That leaves 1B as the position to deal with. Either Giambi or Sheff should play first.
Melky does NOT hurt the team offensively. He is a legit hitter. Melky is MORE likely to get a hit than Giambi.
Without Giambi, you lose power, but gain average. Plus, you have Sheffield in the lineup replacing Giambi, so you don't even LOSE that power. The offense would not even notice Giambi's absence is SHEFF is replacing him. But they WILL notice Melky's absence.
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 23, 2006 16:53:56 GMT -5
Yeah, and Giambi should play first, if you're talking about defense are you going to take a guy who's never even played the position or a guy who is having one of his better years defensivly, he hasn't been struggling. I take Giambi and for even more run production Matsui in left. That's fine you want to keep maybe a run or two off but you can't win without scoring. And no matter what, legit hitter or not, Melky is a 8 hitter, maybe 7 at best in this lineup. I think defense will be the least of the worries this postseason.
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 23, 2006 17:29:24 GMT -5
You know what? Giambi is so bad at first, a guy who is unproven and never played the position may be an upgrade. More important, his wrist is so bad, he may not be able to play the field.
Do you understand that Giambi is the least likely person in the lineup to get a hit? That makes him the weakest link. You'd be replacing him with SHEFF. It's probably an offensive GAIN. You lose nothing offensively, and you gain average and power.
Matsui is a better hitter than Giambi. Period.
Defense LOST US THE SERIES AGAINST ANAHEIM LAST YEAR. Rewatch game 5. Everyone in that lineup can hit. Giambi is the weakest link. It should be a choice between Sheff or Giambi. Melky is a role player, and is more valuable to this team than Giambi. Matsui, Sheff, Posada, ARod, and even Damon can hit HRs. The Yankees would not miss Giambi in the lineup. But they will miss Melky in the field.
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