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Post by thecaptain15 on May 1, 2008 9:00:36 GMT -5
Tom all I said was I am willing to take some lumps this year with the young guys....Guess that shows I don't know what I am talking about. Especially in light of all the other injuries to position players it appears more evident that this could very well be a year we are not going anywhere anyway.....Is Kei Igawa throwing instead of Hughes or Kennedy gonna make a difference? The bullpen will be just as overworked imo. But with Hughes "hurt" now it is a moot point......Right now the rotation is Wang and pray for rain anyways..LOL
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 1, 2008 21:25:10 GMT -5
Tom all I said was I am willing to take some lumps this year with the young guys
Kennedy TONIGHT
4.2 innings, 5 hits, 4 ER, 3 BB, 1 K.
Kennedy SEASON
23.2 innings, 28 hits, 22 ER, 20 BB, 16 K
Bottom two pitchers in average IP per start are Hughes (thankfully gone) and Kennedy.
Have you seen enough "lumps" yet? Huh? Huh? Huh?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on May 1, 2008 22:25:45 GMT -5
So which is it with you? Take the lumps and be patient as young pitchers develop? Or throw money at mediocre crap for 4 year contracts where they come here and tank?
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Post by Jason Giambi on May 1, 2008 22:33:33 GMT -5
They were fooling themselves if they thought these 2 were ready. there were viable 1 year options that wouldn't have cost that much. The other thing is, these kids sucking at 22, can't be good for morale.
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Post by Chris on May 2, 2008 1:00:16 GMT -5
"Take the lumps and be patient as young pitchers develop?"
Isn't that what the minor leagues are for? That's malarky excuses...you're giving the Yankees a pass Balls and you shouldn't...of ALL people, as a die-hard Yankee fan, you shouldn't.
All winter we monitored the hot stoves, we followed spring training, and we were lead to believe that the Yankees believed that these two were going to contribute in a big way immediately based on their minor successes in the bigs last season.
All of a sudden, a collection of bad starts under their belts, and the buzzwords of the day are "patience" and "growing pains." No one, not the Yankees, nor the fans taking the Yankees' expectations to heart, were counting on any requisite patience over growing pains when all this kicked off a month ago. Of course, being the propaganda machine that they are, they Yankees can't simply own up to a bad call and try to remedy it. Hell, Phil Hughes is the best thing that could have happened to the Yankees from a PR standpoint...now they don't have to explain running him out there bad start after bad start with the newly invented "growing pains" excuse.
And don't look now, but last year myself, Tom, and I know at least a few others were voicing their concerns over our worries about the fragility of Hughes which were only supported by the infantile pitch counts the Yankees had him on....and now he is injured...again.
And Angels fan/friend/co-worker waltzed into my office this morning (as he customarily does every morning to comment on the Yankees) and said, "What's up with that trash fire that is the Yankees?" (for those who don't get the joke - trash fires, although confined, are pesky and difficult to put out). I really don't have room to talk considering that his team has the best record in the league and his team DID let their young talent mature in the minors so that they could prosper at the major league level.
Danny Haren....OUT!
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Post by MSBNYY on May 2, 2008 5:55:48 GMT -5
And if there are no major league options available that are any decent, why spend another $50 million over 4 years for a shit pitcher that you can't get rid of? Garbage pitching is garbage pitching whether it be at league minimum or 8 figures.
There were no good free agent pitchers last year. Zip.
Yes, these guys are doing far worse than expected. Apparently one of them was hurt bad enough to be out 2 months (again). The other one isn't ready and should be sent down. But is adding another Carl Pavano that important?
Yes, we realize you wanted to trade everyone and their mother for Danny Haren, and yes, Haren is a good pitcher, but all great big league pitchers start out as prospects. So yes, patience requires dealing with setbacks.
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Post by Jason Giambi on May 2, 2008 7:14:21 GMT -5
The best is how you were worried about Santana and his injuries, and pooh poohed Hughes and his pitch and innings counts and injuries....... No one said they had to sign a pitcher for 4 years, but considering what the two are doing, they could have had other options.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 2, 2008 7:22:56 GMT -5
First off, Balls, lets not point to injuries as an excuse for Hughes' crap performance so far. Even he deflected off talk of it as ridiculous, as he did not feel any of this until after this last start. He KNOWS its not the reason. He has not done it in the majors since he came up, cept for a 6 inning stint once last year. He is in WAY over his head.
LOL @ Kennedy, panicking about a looming move to the minors, snapping, "I dont think that would help." So what are we supposed to do, keep running him out there? I will tell you this, when we finally do send him down, it will probaby be a LONG time to where we see him again.
Funny headline in NEWSDAY today, saw it on the train. "YOUNG PITCHERS - ITS GETTING OLD."
And Balls, stop whining about "bad contracts." These guys are pitching to ERAS of NINE, not four. Guys like Bart Colon or Kyle Lohse could have been bought in for a song. Stop whining about Pavano-like contracts, which are part of the reason we got into this mess in the first place.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 2, 2008 7:36:39 GMT -5
I'm not saying injuries are the reason for the poor start. But let's not pretend this guy isn't a real prospect.
There isn't much difference between an ERA of 5 and an ERA of 9. Either way, you suck. And it's not worth $10 million for an asshole with an ERA of 5.
Yes, Pavano like contracts are what got us into this position. So they were smart enough NOT to do that again.
If Colon could have been brought in for a song, it would be sung by Sanjaya.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 2, 2008 7:58:07 GMT -5
There isn't much difference between an ERA of 5 and an ERA of 9.
One of the more bizarrely ignorant things you have said.
For one thing a 5.00 ERA generally gets you more than 3.2 innings a start.
It was funny hearing Michael Kay getting pissy last night, griping that you cant have your starters going under 4 innings every time out, and expect the bullpen to throw 4 or 5 innings nightly. He was cranky, and he is a lapdog for the team. So if he is being broken, I am hoping that is reaching upstairs too.
Kennedy sucks, and Hughes has shown us nothing. And if he tanks for a career, he wont be the first prospect to flame out.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 2, 2008 9:10:35 GMT -5
Who cares if you're getting more than 3.2 innings a start? A loss is a loss. Pitchers with 5.00 ERAs LOSE. You really don't get it.
Of course Hughes won't be the first prospect to tank out, but to write someone off who is 21 years old and in the majors at a younger age than most is just dumb.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 2, 2008 9:33:26 GMT -5
Who cares if you're getting more than 3.2 innings a start? Eh, the bullpen for one. People who manage a bullpen, for another. Stop trying to defend the kids! As of right now, they suck. They are embarrassing. Time to get them out of here, they cant handle it. I guess you're happy the team is 2 games under .500. I'm not, I want change. You want status quo. You're an idiot.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 2, 2008 9:36:30 GMT -5
I'm not saying they don't suck right now. The fact that they suck should be a reason for you to laud them, since you are the defender and advocate of all pitchers who suck, especially if they are in pinstripes. You want to go out and bring in a random pitcher who sucks. Then you'll whine about payroll.
Fool.
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Post by Chris on May 2, 2008 10:31:26 GMT -5
The remark Tom made about Kennedy being sent down and not resurfacing for a long time rings true with me too!
Mr. Ian Kennedy meet Mr. Branden Claussen.
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Post by Chris on May 2, 2008 10:35:38 GMT -5
"And if there are no major league options available that are any decent, why spend another $50 million over 4 years for a shit pitcher that you can't get rid of?"
Uhhh, to my recollection, the Yankees weren't interested in shit pitchers. They weren't looking at the Kris Bensons of the league, they were looking at elite pitchers like Haren and Santana.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 2, 2008 11:29:57 GMT -5
Um, the Harens and Santanas required not ONLY the top prospects, but millions of dollars. Santana may be a shell by the time his contract is up.
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Post by Chris on May 2, 2008 13:27:28 GMT -5
Santana MAY be a shell by the time his contract is up. He also may win a few more Cy Youngs along the way to becoming that shell...what part of that escapes you.
So basically you judge the entire worth of a player based on how he played on the last day of his contract?
You're the kind of guy who would say that Steve Sax was a shitty baseball player because he hit in the low .200s in his last season.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 2, 2008 13:56:47 GMT -5
He may have monkeys fly out of his butt too, and at the same time, he may pull a Giambi, have one good year and 6 bad ones.
And nowhere did I say that you judge a player by the last day of his contract. You have to be realistic in your expectations, and let's say realistically, Santana has 3-4 good years left. Maybe even 5. By signing him to 7, you're fucking up.
The Mets gave Pedro a 4 year deal when he had 1 or 2 good years left.
That doesn't mean Pedro was a bad pitcher. But it does make the contract a bad one.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on May 2, 2008 13:59:36 GMT -5
And nowhere did I say that you judge a player by the last day of his contract. You have to be realistic in your expectations, and let's say realistically, Santana has 3-4 good years left. Maybe even 5. By signing him to 7, you're fucking up.
Kind of like the Yankees did with Posada, which you called a great move?
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Post by Chris on May 2, 2008 14:05:53 GMT -5
Johan Santana is still in his 20s for chrissakes. It is not at all unreasonable to expect that he can pitch effectively until his mid 30s.
There are effective pitchers in baseball all over the major leagues in their mid 30s who don't have anything close to the resume that Santana has.
Please Balls...are you kidding with the Pedro analogy. Signing a player already in his mid 30s expecting him to stay on top of his game until he's damn near 40 is a FAR CRY from signing a dominant pitcher in his 20s and expecting him to pitch until he's 35 or 36.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 2, 2008 14:06:11 GMT -5
Arguably yes. I didn't call it a great move. I called it the right one. Posada was going to get the 4 years from the Mets. He would have got the 4 years period.
There was no viable alternative in the system. No catcher that was close to the bigs. Molina is serviceable, but like you say, he's not exactly Johnny Bench. Not that Posada is, but he's been a very good backstop over the years, and there was no way of knowing that the guy would go on the DL less than 1 month into the new contract.
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Post by 9 on May 2, 2008 14:08:38 GMT -5
Rather than bitch about what the Yankees SHOULD have done, what the hell do they do now? Trades are rare this early in the season, and we'd get bent over with no Vasoline if we tried to make a deal now. Rasner and Igawa, unless they've developed a major clue from last season, don't inspire me at all.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 2, 2008 14:15:49 GMT -5
Except that there's a huge difference between a 4 year deal and a 7 year deal. The fact is there were no pitchers out there that could be had on the free agent market that didn't suck, and while Santana may have been worth the money, OR the prospects, he was not worth both the money AND the prospects.
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Post by Chris on May 2, 2008 14:18:50 GMT -5
What they should do NOW??
Hughes to the DL is a blessing - not for him or his development, but at least for the Yankees win-loss record.
Kennedy - the minors or the pen. Take your pick, but if he goes to the pen, he should become middle relief, especially for those days when starters exit early. If his success is predicated on working with Eiland, than this might be the better option.
As it stands now, we are forced to rely on Mussina as our 3rd starter. Bring up Rasner and/or Igawa. Maybe they do better than Hughes and Kennedy - at worst they're as bad.
If you make a trade now it better be a good one. Not some Ted Lilly for Jeff Weaver-type experiment. But I mean, realistically who wants to part with pitching this early. The ONLY name I've heard as potential trade bait already is Oswalt. Maybe you have to give up on an Austin Jackson, hell maybe even one of Hughes or Kennedy, but if you can get Oswalt (even with his recent struggles) then you're hand is pretty much forced if you're the Yanks.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 2, 2008 14:54:05 GMT -5
Hughes' injury is NOT a blessing. I would rather he be healthy and sent down to work out his issues. But now another year is essentially wasted. That's another year where he can't be stretched out, and another year longer before he has a shot to reach that potential. It's a disaster.
As for Kennedy, I would say the minors.
I don't know if Oswalt is the right guy, BECAUSE of his recent struggles. He's a potential Zito.
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Post by Chris on May 2, 2008 15:02:38 GMT -5
I knew it. I just knew it, when I mentioned Oswalt, that you'd shit on it. What's the problem with Oswalt? Oh yeah, he's not a Yankee.
Anyone has the potential to be another Zito....Oswalt also has the potential to be MUCH better than both our #1 and #2 guys...MUCH better.
So you're answer is to stand pat with a failing plan, rather than risk a new plan that may succeed, may fail.
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Post by 9 on May 2, 2008 15:12:16 GMT -5
In all fairness to Balls, Oswalt scares me a little bit, too. His numbers are down, and he's a really small guy who throws hard. Something's bound to go wrong.
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Post by MSBNYY on May 2, 2008 15:46:11 GMT -5
If you think the only problem with Oswalt is that he isn't a Yankee, then you need to actually follow baseball and not used Tom's lines.
What's wrong with Oswalt? 2-3, 5.75 is what's wrong with Oswalt, and in the NATIONAL League no less.
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Post by Chris on May 2, 2008 15:56:31 GMT -5
Right!
I'm not trying to make Oswalt out to be Cy Young. But let's look at what we've got to deal with. We have a rotation now that is proven to fail more often than succeed. Oswalt is clearly better than any option in the bottom of our rotation. At WORST (and this is extremely remote) he's only as good as Mussina. At BEST (not nearly as remote as the former) he's better than Wang or Pettitte. Something must be done - you can't stick with failure. So you can either call up Rasner and Igawa and roll the dice, you can shop for the aforementioned Kris Benson-like (or slightly below) caliber guy who can be had for trinkets, or you can sacrifice some youth and try to land a guy like Oswalt who has been highly successfully in the very recent past, but is having some struggles as of late. Those are your options boys...it ain't pretty, but it is what it is.
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Post by Chris on May 2, 2008 15:57:20 GMT -5
Yeah, HE SUCKS!
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