MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on May 22, 2008 12:42:05 GMT -5
He will have growing pains like any young pitcher. Fortunately, people who actually know how to run a baseball team know enough not to blow out a 22 year old's arm by over extending him in just his second full year of pro ball. They say never go more than 25 innings more than the previous year until you get past 200. The Yankees, rightfully, want the guy to last beyond age 25 and not be Mark Prior.
You will not be able to call Joba a bust in 2008 no matter what he does. But I expect growing pains.
|
|
|
Post by sancho231 on May 22, 2008 15:54:52 GMT -5
I'm not Digging this at all. Yes the yankees can use a starter, badly but how long till hes makes his first start? how is ti team gonna be by then??? how many games will be blown in the 8 th?? what the fuck is going on here
|
|
|
Post by 9 on May 22, 2008 16:08:19 GMT -5
what the fuck is going on here That's what Smokin' Hank said.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 26, 2008 0:15:56 GMT -5
I'm just really disgusted that the 8th inning is no longer Joba's. Now it belongs to Ramirez and Farnsworth, while Joba stretches out in middle relief? Is that the plan? Oh great! Hank thinks it's STUPID not to use Joba as a starter? What's even STUPIDER is trying to convert a setup guy to a starter mid-season while still trying to extract some utility out of him.
That's always been the drawback with the Steinbrenners. Forget the big mouths, the meddling with the managers, it's the fact that they feel that they can always do things in an unconventional manner and it's basically owed to them to pan out because of their generosity with the payroll. You know, you can pay guys till doomsday, but baseball conventionality is there for a reason and these guys always think that they can circumvent it because of what...money?
It's over man....you blew your shot at making Joba a starter when you spring trained him as a reliever....live with it until next spring. IDIOTS!
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on May 26, 2008 7:50:21 GMT -5
Thing is, I don't think this is some Steinbrenner mandated thing. I think this was the plan all along. I remember reading over the winter that they were looking to limit him to 140 innings and they were going to start him in the pen.
I don't get Ramirez right now. I just think he's on a hot streak, but he's been great. Nice to see that minor league success actually translating in the majors.
And they really didn't spring train Joba as a reliever. For most of the spring, he was doing the starter routine. This is all part of the plan.
He may also get some time in the minors to stretch out his pitch count, which I think is the right move.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on May 26, 2008 7:54:45 GMT -5
Yankee brass has recently said there are NO plans for him to go to the minors to stretch it out this year, which is somewhat a change of plan. They are probably just afraid of fan and media backlash on that, like it matters. I dont like the way this is going, I dont like the midseason switch, and I can see this backfiring all through the pitching staff.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on May 26, 2008 8:40:18 GMT -5
Hopefully not, though the midseason switch was the plan all along. But that said, once Joba is getting passed 60 pitches, I really think he belongs in the minors for a few weeks until he gets to 100 pitches. It's not like he's being demoted because he sucks.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 26, 2008 15:15:10 GMT -5
Where are you coming up with this crap Balls? Joba had been slated to the bullpen well before the midway point of spring training.
It's a total change of plans.
And glad to see that Joba won't be missed in the pen....Hawkins and Veras will fill the job just nicely, right? What a crock of shit.
Again, this is just more of the typical Steinbrenner M.O. - we can do business in an unorthodox matters because we have cash and there are ghosts in our stadium. Gimme a break with that shit.
And I'm sure that turning Joba's 100 mph fastball into a 93 mph fastball is really going change the fact that "we" can't put runs on the board.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on May 26, 2008 15:29:10 GMT -5
It's called reading the papers Chris. Had you done so, then it wouldn't be a shock to know that there is a 140 IP limit and that there was talk of doing exactly what they are doing as early as the beginning of 2008.
Maybe the Mets should stick Johan Santana as their setup guy. After all, he could do the job really well. In fact, take the best starters in baseball, and let them have the 8th. That's far more important than the job they are doing.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 26, 2008 20:55:30 GMT -5
Now Joba is the Yankees' equivalent of Johan Santana? Holy Crap! Since when has Joba joined the ranks of "All The Best Starters?" The ultimate Yankee apologist strikes again.
What part of 140 Inning Limit translates to "We're gonna blowup the setup situation 1/4 way into the season and try to magically transform Joba into a starter by extending him for two and three innings of wasted middle relief?" 140 inning means just that - 140 innings. You seem to reading whatever you want into that...what does Joba's 140 inning limit also translate to "Giambi sucks?"
You're asking ME if I read the papers? Classic. What you should be asking me is, "Do you read ONLY the Post Yankees section, like I do?" I got the 140 Inning limit, but I must have missed some of your special insight while I was actually reading and watching...oh you know...OTHER baseball.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on May 26, 2008 21:01:44 GMT -5
It's on!!!!
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 26, 2008 23:00:52 GMT -5
Ahh, I don't really think it's ON! I mean, I never disagreed with Balls that Joba would be a good starter. He might. I don't necessarily think he's the sure fire lock that Balls seems to think he is. But I do think he's a sure fire lock to hold down the setup role till Mo retires and a sure fire lock to be a great closer.
I'm not mad that they're going to make him a starter. I just think the old adage "if it ain't broke don't fix it" applies here, and with Joba a setup guy/future closer, it ain't broke. But I am mad that they are going to convert him in a completely stupid and unorthodox manner.
I appreciate Balls' enthusiasm for the Yankees, but I just think eventually you have to stop rubber stamping EVERY MOVE this team makes.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on May 27, 2008 6:06:23 GMT -5
I never said he was Johan Santana. But the point is that he has one of the best arms on the team, and projects as a top level starter. He may not be a super duper ace--that's yet to be known, but you don't bury an arm like that in the 8th inning.
And since you clearly did NOT read about Joba's innings limit and the fact that the team planned this out months ago, you shouldn't be accusing anyone of making it up, especially when things are going down exactly as planned.
By the way, since Santana is now a part of this--he started out in the bullpen when he was first called up.
You would have kept him there.
And while you talk about coddling, Santana pitched 86 MLB innings, in relief at age 21. 30 games, 5 starts.
At age 22, he pitched 43.67 innings, 15 games, 4 starts.
At age 23, he pitched 108.3 innings, 27 games, 14 starts.
At age 24, he pitched 158.3 innings, 45 games, 18 starts.
It wasn't until age 25 that he started full time and cracked 200 innings in the majors.
I am hardly someone who rubber stamps every Yankee move. There have been bad moves that I have railed on for years. But they are finally doing something right with a young talented pitcher.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on May 27, 2008 7:21:39 GMT -5
No...you want to know what would have been "right?" Having him work out as a starter during the offseason, and especially in the Spring. And having him on the hill as a starter from the get-go. He should not have been babied, he should not be "switching roles" and he should not be given pitch and inning counts before he even gets into the job. ' The way this has been handled, to say nothing about the ridiculous back-and-forth between Cashman and Hank on this, is embarrassing.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 27, 2008 9:47:44 GMT -5
This is NOT going exactly as planned Balls...not even close. Stop being such an apologist for stupid moves.
No one, who isn't insane, would plan to convert a setup guy to a starter mid-season....especially one who is already flourishing in the setup role. This is a pure and simple panic move. The Yankees were in a tailspin and had no relief in sight, so they decided that addressing the controversy of Joba the starter vs. Joba the reliever would be a good way to look as though they're doing something about it. If your team is a mess...do you EVER look to blow up the aspects that ARE working? It's a panic move.
Tom is right....he should have been groomed for the rotation in spring training.
And your Johan analogy is still off. Who cares what Johan did when he first came up? When Joba first came up, it was the perfect storm. The setup role was abysmal, he locked it down, and he was built for it - 1 to 2 innings of pure smoking heat, 100+ mph with a slider approaching the mid 90s...that' SICK and it's tailor made for short relief. When Johan came up were the Twins in desperate need of a setup guy and eventual closer? No, it wasn't a dire situation like the Yanks had. And you're missing my point anyway Balls. I'm not telling you you're wrong for wanting Joba in the rotation, even though I'd rather have him in the pen. I'm telling you that this so-called "plan" (more like a knee-jerk reaction) is the dumbest way they can possibly go about making Joba a starter. They missed their chance this spring, now wait till next spring.
|
|
$heriff Tom
Administrator
Groom ba ya ya ya
Posts: 16,173
|
Post by $heriff Tom on May 27, 2008 10:04:54 GMT -5
The Yanks are in panic mode cause they sat back and let back-end guys like Colon and Kyle Lohse sign elsewhere, and left themselves short. And they think the Joba train will ride forever, and the guy is untouchable. For the sake of all of us, I hope they are close, but the way this is being done, expect it to backfire somewhat. Its not the way to handle a young pitcher.
|
|
|
Post by 9 on May 27, 2008 10:27:55 GMT -5
What worries me about Joba starting is that those third and fourth pitches that worked well in the minor leagues may not necessarily work well in the show. Obviously, I hope I'm wrong, being a huge Joba fan.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 27, 2008 10:40:00 GMT -5
And I THINK you're on the right track Nettles. Not only that, but what has worked for him in the MAJORS will no longer be a part of his arsenal. You may see him dial it up to 97 or 98 on occasion (a' la Pedro Martinez) but he's not going to go with 100 mph fastballs and 94 mph sliders for 7 innings.
And before we start prematurely ejaculating all over our Joba shrines, spare me (because I can smell it coming) the "Well it worked out for Nolan Ryan" remarks. Look, I'm as big a Joba fan as there is, and Joba AIN'T Nolan Ryan...at this point he's still chasing BJ Ryan.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on May 27, 2008 11:26:34 GMT -5
This IS part of the plan, and saying, "no it isn't," doesn't change that yes it is. No one is saying Joba isn't an outstanding 8th inning man. But he was meant to be a starter.
And Joba DID work as a starter in the offseason and for most of the spring. 140 inning limit. Stop whining about it.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 27, 2008 11:31:58 GMT -5
I love it..."saying no it isn't doesn't change that it is." Classic Balls - no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't. That's ALWAYS your comeback...."Just because you say so, doesn't make it so." Well Balls, right back atcha...just because YOU SAY SO doesn't make it so.
You don't know what you're talking about in this case. You're Hank's rubber stamp guy...plain and simple.
|
|
|
Post by Jason Giambi on May 27, 2008 11:39:48 GMT -5
this plan sucks.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on May 27, 2008 11:40:18 GMT -5
Actually, I do know what I'm talking about. I read the article in February. You are the one speaking from ignorance.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 27, 2008 11:41:23 GMT -5
Guaranteed if the Yankees would have released a statement saying Joba was being sent to Triple A to stretch out, Balls would be here saying, "This was the plan all along."
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on May 27, 2008 11:48:05 GMT -5
February 12, 2008, General Yankee Notes, 3:38 PM, on page 50.
A link to an article about the 140 inning plan, with Joba starting in the pen, possibly going to the minors in June, and finishing in the rotation is posted.
I did not post this link.
You did.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 27, 2008 11:55:30 GMT -5
Exactly - possibly going to the minors? Where is that plan now....according to you, THIS is the plan - reducing him to middle relief where his utility to the team will be absolutely minimized.
And believe me, with all of the expectations on Hughes and Kennedy, no one expected Joba would really sniff a day in the minors. It was discussed right here on this board that the "possibly going to the minors" was nothing more than lip service to placate those crying about Joba in the rotation. The REAL plan, and you know it, was to have Hughes and Kennedy prove to be solid back-end guys giving us a solid staff altogether, Joba as the setup man, Mo as the closer, for the duration of the season. You know it's true so put your rubber stamp away. Hell, after game 1 followed that plan to a "T", the Yankees thought the remainder of the season was a cake-walk.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on May 27, 2008 12:04:33 GMT -5
The first step is to build up his pitch count. When his pitch count is to get high enough that it isn't feasible to get him in long relief, you send him to the minors.
Hey, Hughes and Kennedy certainly were expected to do better than they have to this point, but that has nothing to do with Joba. This is NOT a panic move. Getting him to the rotation has been part of the plan since the beginning.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 27, 2008 12:11:42 GMT -5
Kennedy and Hughes have EVERYTHING to do with this stupid, knee-jerk, panic move.
|
|
|
Post by jwmcc on May 27, 2008 12:22:02 GMT -5
While I agree with Tom that the right move should have been that Joba had gotten ready to be a starter over the winter and just stick with putting him in the rotation from spring training on, I do like that they're at least making the attempt instead of taking the easy way out and keeping him in the bullpen, assuring that CC Sabathia would get some stupid long term contract to come pitch here. Jw
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 27, 2008 12:23:18 GMT -5
Wait Wait...lemme guess...just because I said so doesn't make it so, right?
Brilliant
Does that work in court?
That's the thing man, you can never have discourse with Balls - it's alway a "No....you're wrong and I'm right because I said so." and any subsequent discussion only provokes more "Nope, I'm right you're wrong" posts. You can never discuss topics, you can only get binary answers from Balls.
|
|
|
Post by 9 on May 27, 2008 12:51:52 GMT -5
While I agree with Tom that the right move should have been that Joba had gotten ready to be a starter over the winter and just stick with putting him in the rotation from spring training on, I do like that they're at least making the attempt instead of taking the easy way out and keeping him in the bullpen, assuring that CC Sabathia would get some stupid long term contract to come pitch here. Jw Bravo. Well said.
|
|