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Post by thecaptain15 on Sept 4, 2007 11:49:59 GMT -5
I remember hearing retirement talk from him before he reupped so maybe he is seriously considering it...
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Post by IronHorse4 on Sept 4, 2007 13:57:40 GMT -5
I don't normally enter into these discussions, because I have, for all intents and purposes, dropped off the face of the smart-mark earth, as it were. And I'm just reading this thread now, so forgive the dredging of Page-1 discussion.
I wanted to briefly address the issue of steroids in wrestling in general. Balls made a point about how it seems that you really can't be successful in this day and age in wrestling without steroids, given the daily grind and quick recovery time needed. T.J. responded about how they seemed to do fine in the 60s and 70s without it, and how the grind was as tough/tougher back then. I'm paraphrasing, so don't kill me over this.
I'll give you the 60s, but I have no doubt that guys were using steroids even in the 70s. Not saying everyone did, but if the Super Steelers and guys like Lyle Alzado were roiding up to one degree or another (eventually killing guys like Alzado and Mike Webster and probably others that we aren't privy to), then I think it might be a bit naive to think that steroids weren't prevalent even back then. The stuff was out there, and with wrestlers (or anyone else) looking for that edge in an avenue that necessitated taking a beating where there weren't much short-term consequences (suspensions, testing, general scrutiny), then I have to believe that it has been a part of wrestling for as long as I'm alive, and maybe longer. now I'm sure I haven't done anything to solve the problem here, but I think Balls made a very good point. I'm not saying the percentage of users was much higher than even football back then, but there's enough smoke from football usage that was swept under the rug even back then that it's plausible (at the very least) that it has been prevalent in wrestling for 30 years or more.
Now, wrestling was successful back then, but it's all relative to the expectations of the public. The wrestling public for a generation or more has come to expect their wrestlers to be larger than life. Sure, there is a base who enjoys a cruiserweight immensely, but that type of wrestler has always been a complement to the more popular heavyweight. I get the impression from T.J. that it would be better to just start from scratch and clean house completely. But I think that would be the end of wrestling as we all know it. And if you were to retrain the public to want the smaller guys, then you would be sacrificing most of the revenue base in the process.
Would it be better in the long run? Sure. But how long would McMahon be willing to wait for that? I don't really see it happening. Certainly, this is the biggest response to date by the fed to the issue of steroids, but I don't see it ever being cleaned out due to the expectations of the viewing public to see a perfectly-sculpted behemoth in the likes of a Hogan, Batista, HHH, etc.
Don't get me wrong...I don't have a dog in this fight (and if I do, it's the same one you all have). I want wrestling to remain successful. My intermittent viewing habits over my lifetime don't necessarily skew that. But I think Balls made an excellent point that none of us really want to admit, much less accept. It almost seems impossible at this point to have a steroid-free product and enjoy the wild success that wrestling, and McMahon specifically, have come to expect and demand.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 4, 2007 14:06:59 GMT -5
Without getting too deep into your argument, which I will tackle point by point later on, in the 70s the top names in wrestling included Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, Nick Bockwinkel, Ray Stevens, Gorilla Monsoon, Haystacks Calhoun, Andre, Crusher and Bruiser, Verne Gagne, Wahoo McDaniel, Ivan Koloff....I can go on and on. Not much steroids going on. In the dozens of wrestling "tell-alls" I have read and the dozens of "shoot interviews" I have seen, wrestlers talk about the start of steroids in wrestling taking hold in the 80s. Yeah, you had your "Superstar Grahams" and others who dabbled, sure, but you had that on the schoolyards too. It was NOT prevelent.
Wrestling did fine in those time periods. Yeah, we have been pre-conditioned to look for muscle-bound sorts of folk, but its not like guys with Trevor Murdoch's body have never gotten over.
Please do not call me naive. If anything, I know much more about this topic, considering the hours of audio/video and reams of paper I have read on it. On the whole, steroids were not as deeply rooted in the 70s. I understand the boom that started in wrestling...in the EIGHTIES. This is word from dozens of sources, and heaps of wrestlers who lived it, and admitted to it. The earliest regular steroid user in wrestling was Billy Graham, who was built like no others back then.
In fact, the book I am reading now, by the late Missing Link - whose whole point was NOT to do drugs, spends pages talking about how steroids and other body-building drugs took hold around the time he was in World Class (1983-85) and that is when he started. His career had begun in the late 60s. He had not experienced them before that, and had wrestled throughout Canada, and in the Florida, Mid-South, and Kansas City/St Louis circuits. But lets not listen to him....he is not covering ass, his point of the book was the call out the business and plead with others not to make his mistakes.
"No steroids" does NOT mean Cruiserweight only. In fact, steroids run rampant in that divsion too (see Jamie Noble, Chavo Jr, Rey, and Funaki) = but again, there are lots of guys who got over fine without insane muscle mass. Take this board alone - I am comfortable in that NONE of us guys watch wrestling cause we like to look at guys with muscles. There are many of us out there who would follow wrestling even if everyone shrunk....you KNOW that.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Sept 4, 2007 14:32:56 GMT -5
Of course I know that.
But we are not the target audience.
Most of the revenue generated from the WWE is from the masses. And the masses are stupid. Just like any other sport. No matter what sport you can think of, the vast majority of the people who spend money are people that are not the well-educated fans that most of us are. I know that you spend plenty of money on wrestling even today, but remember that wrestling is a show, and the biggest and baddest have been the most popular for most of your lifetime.
My comments weren't directed at the people who frequent this board. And I'm a bit surprised you interpreted it that way. But it is naivete to rely completely on tell-all books to tell the story. For the dozens who admitted it, there were many who likely didn't admit it. Law of averages. I know you know a lot about the topic -- again, that wasn't the point. And saying that steroids weren't deeply rooted in the 70s -- well, you simply repeated my point. But the boom that you mention just means that it exploded in the 80s. Well, that spark had to start somewhere.
I respect your defense of wrestling, though I think as much as it is based in research, it is also based in being defensive. Not selling your knowledge short. You know more about wrestling than anyone I have ever been associated with. But accounts of a "heap" of wrestlers who say that it wasn't prevalent simply means that it wasn't in plain sight in the locker room. The boom in the 80s was such because it wasn't a secret anymore. But it was there. Logically, it HAD to be there.
And yes, there are plenty of guys that have gotten over without insane muscle mass. But you need that huge guy to tie it all together. I'm not talking about for a quick run. You need the bruisers. Without it, it loses some appeal to the average Joe, and that's where the money is.
You wanna look at this board? Ok.
T.J. - spends on wrestling. PPVs, DVDs, etc. Grover - just as big a fan, doesn't spend.
Cactus James - probably spends Balls - no
It's all about the money, bro-seph. And the public loves the big guy.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 4, 2007 14:39:45 GMT -5
I dont know. I simply dont think people are going to turn away from wrestling cause muscles on top of muscles are going to go away.
Especially as you just named a couple of guys who DO spend on wrestling, and will continue to watch even if everyone was built like One Man Gang.
I'll use the Pro Wrestling Torch as an example. Wrestling newsletter/websites/news site for over 20 years now. Over 1000 "VIP" members. Going from polls now, these are the fans who want an overhaul, and these are the fans spending real money on the product. I honestly dont think wrestling fans are as shallow as you think they are.
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 4, 2007 14:48:59 GMT -5
Mush brianed idiotic public. Fuck the big guys. Give me a 60 minute back and forth chain wrestling match with good story telling and good, believable selling. The average fan knows dick about wrestling.
I agree with Justin, as much as I'm a bigger fan of the smaller guys who can wrestle, Justins right, you need the big guys, and I don't mind them if they can do their job good. And as Balls may have said, the steroids help that, and I can't say bigger guys in the past didn't use. Was it a well known talked about thing? Probably not, but we can never know for sure, not even by reading biographies or tell alls, or any other "secrets of wrestling" crap. It sucks wrestling relys so heavily on the big guy cause you'd have less guys using shit and just wrestling.
But it won't change and the wrestling will always be around cause there is too much of a demand for it. Wrestling can survive without the body builder, monster kind of guy, but the way it is now, cause of Hogan, it won't change. Maybe now busting down on wrstling can clean some of the shit up.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 4, 2007 14:51:40 GMT -5
Again, you are missing my point. There always WERE big guys. One Man Gang, Bossman, Bruiser Brody, Stan Hansen, Killer Khan, King Kong Mosca, Terry Gordy, Crusher Blackwell, Andre, it goes on and on. There are ALWAYS guys out there bigger than other guys, who can be pushed, without using roids.
You make it seem like before the advent of steroids there were never any "monster heels" in wrestling. Roddy Piper was one of the greatest villains ever, and from these "tell alls" he never dabbled in steroids. And then you got big guy heels like I mentioned, who there is no reason to believe were doing roids.
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Post by sancho231 on Sept 4, 2007 14:52:34 GMT -5
yes they are. have you been to a WWE card lately? its all kids and retards.any show you go to be it WWE or ROH or indy there are tons of stupid people the same people who buy those spinner belts for 300 bucks.now if all the juice heads were fired would the ratings drop?would the merch sales drop?could vince rebuld the product from scratch? yes i would keep on watching im not sure EVERYBODY will
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Post by grover on Sept 4, 2007 14:56:12 GMT -5
Kids wont. Kids don't want to see small dudes when they were just exposed to 20 years of heavy steroid abuse.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 4, 2007 15:03:23 GMT -5
Sorry, dont buy that.
Well, we shall see, in due time. Wrestlers will be shrinking, but I am sure this is by no means a death knell for wrestling.
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Post by grover on Sept 4, 2007 15:17:52 GMT -5
I'm just going on how I was as a kid. For example, I loved the Road Warriors, but I thought Demolition were fat fags. I didn't appreciate big name guys like Dusty Rhodes until I was a bit older. And I watched any wrestling you put in front of me. I think kids and fans these days are a millions worst than the most fickle fan back then.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 4, 2007 15:35:44 GMT -5
Hogan may have been the most popular wrestler of all time, but he wasn't the first big guy of his type. Hogan was seriously influenced by Billy Graham.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 4, 2007 15:37:16 GMT -5
Yeah, a name I already bought up in here...
But thanks for chiming in! Care to read someone elses posts any?
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 4, 2007 15:40:04 GMT -5
You tend to ramble a bit. I bet you didn't even know that Hogan was influenced by Graham.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 4, 2007 15:42:33 GMT -5
I answered Justins points. He went on longer than I did. Irregardless of that fact, show some respect for the rest of the people on the board and read what others have to say sometime. This is not the Metssuckballs Show. Dont make me join the others on here that dont even bother to read your posts cause they get people so mad. If I know you are "breezing through what I have to say" I will return that same respect by ignoring you.
Idiot.
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Post by grover on Sept 4, 2007 16:00:39 GMT -5
LOL What's next? Is Balls going to make a thread about the WWE suspending ten wrestlers?
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Post by Ms. Jericho on Sept 4, 2007 16:41:05 GMT -5
Neither do most of the chick fans.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 4, 2007 21:58:36 GMT -5
So if you don't read my posts, wouldn't that make you a hypocrite?
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 5, 2007 7:02:02 GMT -5
At this point, I am still reading your posts. If I find out you continue to skip past mine, and the others, then I will simply ignore you.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 5, 2007 7:37:45 GMT -5
Maybe you should just wait until I skip your posts before you ignore me.
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Post by IronHorse4 on Sept 5, 2007 8:11:59 GMT -5
Would you guys just get a room and fuck already.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 5, 2007 8:23:10 GMT -5
I'm not drunk enough.
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 5, 2007 11:50:33 GMT -5
You're also not funny enough You're also not smart enough You're also not good looking enough You also not interesting enough to fuck.....anyone or anything.
How funny was that promo they did for Morrison and Punk last night, showing the highlights the music bed in the backround was either a direct ripoff or little tiwst on The End by the Doors. I was laughinhg my ass off. But morrison on the mic is bad, he sounds weird, like you can tell he's beung scripted. Not conviction to him promos at all. But the match was really good, the last 8 minutes or so were fantastic with great moves and close nearfalls. This will be a long 30 days without the Guru of greatness, the cornball of catchphrases, John Morrison. What a douche.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 5, 2007 13:24:42 GMT -5
You are becoming almost as obsessed with me as the guy on the other board. You talking about my sex life is really gay, as is you talking about my looks.
But then again, you're the one who wipes his dick on his friends, so to each his own.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 5, 2007 13:32:24 GMT -5
But then again, you're the one who wipes his dick on his friends, so to each his own.
He's got ya there...
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Post by cactusjames on Sept 5, 2007 13:45:46 GMT -5
No he didn't, he has nothing but highlight, copy and pasting. That's a real talent. Something to be really proud of. And again, beleive what you want, that's still more play than Balls has had on 45 years on this earth.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 5, 2007 13:51:42 GMT -5
Borderline obsessive. Not as bad as the other guy, but still pretty sad.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 10, 2007 22:28:23 GMT -5
OK, I was just yapping with Balls a little while ago, and we were trying to figure out who exactly was suspended. Well, the Observer is confirming the final list of the people suspended for the internet pharmacy snafu.
According to the Wrestling Observer Newsletter, the confirmed WWE suspensions include Charlie Haas, Edge, Gregory Helms, John Morrison, William Regal, Mr. Kennedy, Umaga, Funaki, Chavo Guerrero and Chris Masters. It is unclear if Masters received a 30 or 60 day suspension. Masters has a lot of heat for missing the initial face to face meeting WWE had with the original ten suspended wrestlers days after the Summerslam PPV. Edge and Helms, both out of action due to injuries, will lose 30 days of their downside guarantee pay.
Booker T, also fumored to be hit with a 60 day suspension, failed one of the recent wellness tests, as did Eugene, who was fired for a THIRD offense. Cryme Tyme was also fired recently, but for disciplinary reasons due to problems they had with Cade and Murdoch both in and out of the ring.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Sept 11, 2007 5:53:46 GMT -5
Not that as devastating of a list as originally thought. Edge and Helms aren't even on TV right now. The only names that truly matter are Morrison for ECW, Mr. Kennedy and Umaga.
Umaga's a surprise given his physique but given how much I loathe him, I will not miss him. Maybe when he gets back, he'll be in the doghouse and end up going to midcard status like he belongs.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Sept 11, 2007 7:37:42 GMT -5
Balls, how long will it take for you to realize that people do not take steroids just to bulk up. Also, you can use an internet pharmacy to buy other sorts of druggery. Oh, and for your info, they wrote Umaga off the way they did so when he comes back he has a tailor made main-event feud with HHH.
So much for your "doghouse" hopes.
If anyone is in the doghouse, its Kennedy, for speaking out and getting caught in a lie, and screwing up the biggest serial angle the WWE has run in years. I am hearing unconfirmed rumors they are so angry with him he may still end up losing his job over this. My bet is this is mended, but so much for Kennedy headlining next years Mania. That, from all sources, will never happen.
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