|
Post by Jason Giambi on Feb 6, 2008 9:52:26 GMT -5
they get tv reception in Lancaster? ? Book, get up, it's 4:30, time for milking.
|
|
|
Post by grover on Feb 6, 2008 9:59:38 GMT -5
Mara was right in saying this is the biggest win in the history of the franchise. And I won't shy away from saying it was the best Superbowl ever, and it's obvious that the sports pundits want to call it that but are not because they don't want to say a SB with a goofball like Manning at the helm is the greatest ever. that's why goofs like Mike and the Mad Dog are saying it's too early to say, like 2 weeks of silent meditation in a monks temple is required.
There were too many story lines involved, most of the events happening seemed fictional. It doesn't seem real to me. While it's hard to pick which was more exciting, this was a bigger win by far.
Even though the Bills were a hell of a team, they were just establishing themselves among the elite, and that Giants team still had players from it's 86 team, where as this Giants team have more of a mixed bag and a ton of good young players and the Pats are on a dynasty run and were 4 quarters away from being called the greatest team ever.
And that's just a sliver of all the story lines going around. Seau and Moss getting a ring, Past best team ever, spygate, has Eli arrived, will the Pats win by 3 TDs? Can the Giants do this without Tiki? Can they win ANOTHER road game? Will Strahan get a ring? Ect and on and on.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 10:08:16 GMT -5
That's really interesting. I never knew that pros beating college teams would ever be considered a big deal. That makes no sense, even back then.
The NFC was definitely more dominant in the XXI and XXV eras. I think that the XXI team was the best Giants team in my lifetime, though that's not really the topic. They were the best team in the NFL that year by far, and showed it. My only regret over that season was that they didn't get a chance to play the Bears in the playoffs and thump them.
I can easily see that XXI is not the best Super Bowl though because they WERE the favorite, and beat the Broncos the way they were supposed to beat the Broncos.
I guess it's hard for me to accept the Patriots as unstoppable, even with that record. Between Spygate, Week 17, and the fact that they had some close calls, they just didn't have that mystique and aura that I've seen with previous inevitable Super Bowl Champs.
Maybe other people felt differently, but they didn't hit me with the same feeling that no matter what, they were going to win, like say the 49ers teams, the 1985 Bears, the 1986 Giants. The Giants didn't have that aura either, but I had this "team of destiny" gut feeling.
In 2001, I didn't think of the Mariners like I did the Yanks in 1998. While nothing is done until it's done, the 1998 team was just magical. Dominant. But I felt that the 2001 Yanks could take them, and they did. It was similar with the Patriots. I didn't feel they were as good as their 18-0 record. I have no real football belief behind that. Just gut feeling.
If the Patriots were the 2001 Mariners, the Giants were the 2002 Angels. Once the playoffs hit, they just heated up at the right time, and rolled through the playoffs. The 1996 Yanks are another team that comes to mind.
I think the feelings I had about the Patriots made it that much sweeter that they lost. I would have rooted for any team against the Patriots because I thought of them as dirty, and not worthy of being undefeated. I really think that there are SEVERAL previous Super Bowl champs from different eras that would have beaten them, including the XXI and XXV Giants among others. No way to prove that, but just a gut feeling.
I think the Giants did a great service in wiping the Patriots from the history books.
|
|
|
Post by grover on Feb 6, 2008 10:17:54 GMT -5
The team was 18-0 with someone who could become the greatest QB ever in the drivers seat going for their 4th Superbowl win and they didn't have mystique and aura?
The casual fan in you is hindering your view of things. If you put your heart into Football like you did Baseball, you'd see things differently.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 10:31:21 GMT -5
I can't explain it, and maybe it is the casual fan. But I didn't have the same feelings about this Patriots team that I did about other teams I listed. I didn't feel the inevitability. And the Giants had this hunger in them that I really didn't feel the Patriots had. They believed in themselves that they could match them.
The 18-0 was the thing that pissed me off about this Patriots team. Obviously I didn't follow them religiously, but I believe that if they could magically get some sort of tournament of Super Bowl Champions, this Patriots team would lose to several past champions.
I guess I can't consider Brady the best QB ever either. That's pretty much an impossible thing to rank given how many legendary QBs there have been. If you put a gun to my head, I would pick Montana, but that doesn't mean Brady won't be in the elite of the elite.
The Patriots just came off as a dirty team who would have been remembered not just for being undefeated, but for cheating. It would have been tarnished. Now they are just a footnote.
Maybe the reason I'm so attached to XXV is that I feel it was a better football game. The stakes are obviously equal no matter the year, and that game also had an underdog Giants team win. The game was more see saw, and that finish also came down to the last second.
I think XLII had more miracles attached. That Tyree catch beats anything in XXV, even Ingram's incredible extra effort to get that 1st down during "the drive."
And yeah, a lot of that game seemed out of a movie. Or at least, the last drive did. The Tyree catch was the SECOND miracle of that play. Eli escaping the sack? WOW.
That's the kind of play I would expect to happen AGAINST a team I root for, not IN FAVOR of one.
I guess it's like arguing which Playboy model you'd rather fuck. Either way, you win.
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Feb 6, 2008 10:51:33 GMT -5
Not Chyna. I think that's actually a loss.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 10:55:45 GMT -5
I guess Chyna would be the loss to the Ravens.
|
|
|
Post by grover on Feb 6, 2008 10:56:19 GMT -5
'That's the kind of play I would expect to happen AGAINST a team I root for, not IN FAVOR of one.'
Yeah, exactly. That and everything else is what makes it so special. There are too many all time moments in this that it puts it above the rest, even XXV.
To me, the only thing that comes close to this for me is the 94 Rangers.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 11:17:13 GMT -5
You think part of the reason you feel this way is because no one picked the Giants to even come close? In XXV, the Giants were one of the top 3 teams in football. The Bills were the best in the AFC by far, and the 49ers were the 2 time defending champs and played like it all year. 2 of the Giants' 3 losses were to the Bills and 49ers.
So their winning, while great, was not out of the question. You could argue there was overachieving this year, which made it so amazing.
|
|
|
Post by Jackass on Feb 6, 2008 11:58:00 GMT -5
I never knew that pros beating college teams would ever be considered a big deal. That makes no sense, even back then.
Wow. Just. Wow.
|
|
|
Post by grover on Feb 6, 2008 12:04:41 GMT -5
It's more of a coming of age than over achieving. The vets stepped up as they should, the young guys like Osi, Jacobs and Eli took that next step, and the young guys like Boss, Ross, Bradshaw and Smith showed they could handle the pressure.
If Reese continues to draft well, you could see the Giants emerge as a powerhouse.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 12:05:46 GMT -5
I'm serious. I don't follow college football at all, I know absolutely nothing about the early days of football (other than those classic weird helmets and that every game was muddy and in black & white), and logically, pro teams would consist of the best athletes possible, including ex-college greats. That's the way it is today, so where did the NFLers come from if not from the colleges?
|
|
|
Post by cactusjames on Feb 6, 2008 14:29:14 GMT -5
I'd just like to point out one thing, me personally, I don't consider what the Pats did cheating. EVERY team does it, they just never got caught doing it. And bottom line is this, after they got caught, they still never lost till the Superbowl(which I think is the greatest ever, and said so going in no matter who won. Either way you saw the biggest upset in all of sports ever, or the first 19-0 team, history). Plus it was the Jets that pointed out the cheating, it's spiteful malarky cause Mangini's a whiny little bitch. Every team does what the Pats did, so the whole league is a bunch of cheaters? Now if they get concrete proof they taped the Rams before 2002 superbowl, then what I said goes out the window. As for the game, as a Cowboy fan and hater of both teams in the Superbowl, I was on edge of my seat the entire time, rooting for both the history making game or the biggest upset. As a football fan, you saw the best that sports can offer. It had all the excitment and drama of a wrestling main event pulled off perfectly(no pun intended). You want the game to go down to the last play, the last drive, the last quarter etc. And with so much riding on it, all the shit Grover pointed out, easily gets my vote for best Super bowl of all time, certainly better than any other one I've seen in my life.
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Feb 6, 2008 14:38:08 GMT -5
It was cheating. Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's not cheating.
As for all of these people like Vermeil and Jimmy Johnson saying it's no big deal and it doesn't help, etc...
If it doesn't help, then why break the rules and do it?
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 14:43:51 GMT -5
I think that the NFL took it too easy on the Patriots. A first round draft pick? Big deal. What should have happened was that the Patriots should have been disqualified from that game, and the Jets should have been awarded the victory. Without that, the cheaters won the game.
|
|
|
Post by cactusjames on Feb 6, 2008 15:32:25 GMT -5
How is it cheating if every team does it? If you don't do it, you're at a disadvantage. If the Pats were the first and only team to ever do it, fine, asterik them or whatever. But every team in the league does it, and it's known that it's done. It just so happen the Pats got busted. And if Mangini wasn't a douche, would anyone have said anything at all? Any team? Don't get me wrong, fuck New England, Boston the Pats etc. But Mangini is a fucking sore loser, he knew what they were doing(cause again, it's common practice in the league)and went public with it. Then after them getting caught they still steamrolled through the season. No it isn't cheating, cause there would have to be proof that the Pats are the only team doing it, and it can't be proven. If you're asking why is it done Justin, I ask why not? You're already fighting from behind if you don't do it. It's sports, the name of the game is getting whatever competitive(sp) edge you can.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 15:39:37 GMT -5
How are you a sore loser if you lost by cheating and pointed it out?
|
|
|
Post by Jason Giambi on Feb 6, 2008 15:58:14 GMT -5
Frankly, I think the Patriots were a better football team than the Jets...... period. I don't see how the cheating helped them whoop their ass. It would have been different if they blocked the Jets game winning FG by having 13 men on the field.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 16:18:08 GMT -5
It doesn't matter. It's like cheating on a test in school. Let's say you get caught cheating on one question, but get all the other ones right. That's an F for you, and rightfully so.
The Patriots could play the Jets 10 times and would beat them 10 times. But it doesn't matter. They cheated and got caught. They should get the loss.
|
|
|
Post by cactusjames on Feb 6, 2008 17:05:25 GMT -5
Your analogies don't apply Balls, sports is different than school. Getting a competitive edge, which is the norm in sports, is not the same as cheating on a test, which I've done and isn't that bad either.
As for being the sore loser thing, Mangini has a grudge, that's why he made a big deal out of a common practice in the league.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 17:11:53 GMT -5
Cheating is cheating, period. The Patriots were rewarded for their cheating with an unearned victory. If you get caught cheating, you should lose what you worked for.
|
|
|
Post by cactusjames on Feb 6, 2008 17:19:00 GMT -5
It's not cheating. I don't give a shit if it's in the rulebook that a team isn't allowed to do it, it's known more teams than just the Pats do what they did, you would have a lot of games being penalized if it was closely watched. It's done all over the league, so by you're logic every team cheats. In my mind, you got to keep up with what other teams are doing for an edge or you're going to have a tougher time keeping up with other teams.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 17:39:51 GMT -5
Or, you can crack down, punish the cheating team that gets caught--every time, so that eventually, the cheating stops.
|
|
|
Post by drock2006 on Feb 6, 2008 18:03:09 GMT -5
Those who make a big deal about the Giants and Jets playing in NJ should note the following:
The Dolphins do not play in Miami, the pats moved so far out of Boston they changed the name of the team to New England, Buffalo does not play in Buffalo, the Cowboys do not play in Dallas, the redskins do not play in DC..so out of the 8 teams in the East NFL divisions 6 do no tplay in the cities they are named for and one moved so far out they removed the word Boston from the name
At least you can see NYC from the Meadowlands
|
|
|
Post by 9 on Feb 6, 2008 19:59:41 GMT -5
I don't think we have enough server space for me to go into all of the things I disagree with James on.
|
|
|
Post by cactusjames on Feb 6, 2008 22:07:11 GMT -5
And there isn't enough space for me to go in depth into how stupid everyone is for caring so much about this. It's either total retardation or just plain stupid hatred for New England/Boston. If the Pats busted the Jets or Giants, you guys wouldn't give a shit.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 6, 2008 22:32:16 GMT -5
I don't think that's true at all. I think even if it was the Jets/Giants that got busted, it's still cheating, and everything I said should have happened to the Patriots, should have happened to whoever cheats. The first thing that should be done is that the game be forfeited.
It would be like letting Ben Johnson keep his gold medal.
Interesting point about the Giants coming of age.
I just think that the best thing they did all year was take a meaningless game, and give it their all when they didn't have to. It showed a level of class and heart and just as important, hunger. I think had they rested their starters and got crushed, they never would have found out that they were capable of playing with the elite and may not have had this incredible run.
I sure hope they can build on this and repeat.
|
|
|
Post by grover on Feb 7, 2008 2:53:40 GMT -5
Well they had a great young D which played better after those two first games. The young guys who came up were the guys from this years draft class. Aaron Ross held things down at CB, Kevin Boss stepped up for Shockey and got things done where Shockey would just drop the ball and throw a fit. Steve Smith emerged as the #3 WR, and will take the #2 spot from Toomer when he steps down. Hell, our last pick in the draft was Bradshaw and look how well he complimented Jacobs in the running game.
They came of age once the last big mouth, Shockey, got hurt. The last sucker was not there and everyone else went to work, and got on such a run they ran their way to a Superbowl.
|
|
MSBNYY
Administrator
El Guapo
Posts: 15,545
|
Post by MSBNYY on Feb 7, 2008 6:39:34 GMT -5
The defense just stepped up dramatically and no game showed that more than the Super Bowl. It was just amazing to watch. I really hope that can continue next year.
I never understood the big deal about Shockey. I haven't watched him as religiously as others, but when I do, he makes some nice catches, but drops a lot too. How would you compare him to Bavaro in his prime?
|
|
|
Post by IronHorse4 on Feb 7, 2008 10:07:08 GMT -5
Shockey is far more talented than Bavaro, but has a 5 cent head.
Of course, Bavaro was a lunatic. But he was a team guy, and Shockey has always been about himself. Lots of enthusiasm, but he's never matured.
I remember when he first signed and he was on MMD, but he was late a few times and bagged a few appearances, so MMD fired him. Francesa went off on him large. And Shockey doesn't seem to have changed.
The Giants can certainly use his talents. He's better than Boss, but the problem is he knows it. Now he saw they can win without him. I would think he's still welcome, but he needs to 180 his attitude, or he'll be bounced.
I'll be impressed if he sucks it up and is actually productive for the Giants next year. Because that has to suck being in that locker room and knowing they did it without you.
|
|