$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 12, 2008 8:48:29 GMT -5
YEARS AND YEARS from now, when some looks at an almanac and sees that an 18 win pitcher beat out a 22 win pitcher, they're gonna say WHAT THE FUCK?
I dont buy into this thinking AT ALL. I mean, come on. Why bother voting for the award using this thought process? Just give the trophy to the guy who got the most wins!
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 12, 2008 9:29:20 GMT -5
Linceum's ERA was 2.62 in 222IP, and had 265Ks.
Webb's ERA was 3.30 in 226.67 IP, with 183Ks.
Wins are probably the least important stat since they are dependent more on the offense than even the pitcher. A pitcher can be a 20 game winner with an ERA of 4.00 or higher if he gets the run support.
Webb had a great season. Linceum had a better one.
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Post by joetee316 on Nov 12, 2008 9:47:40 GMT -5
Lincecum was the correct choice. Wins are an overrated category and not what the Cy Young Award should be based on.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 12, 2008 9:55:16 GMT -5
I don't see how you can compare the two side by side and NOT choose Linceum. No brainer here. They got it right.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 12, 2008 9:58:59 GMT -5
Yeah, Cho, whats wrong with you recently? Between this and the Palin stuff, you got me worried!
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Post by 9 on Nov 12, 2008 10:54:29 GMT -5
LOL!
As for MVPs, I'd vote Howard and Pedroia.
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Post by Chris on Nov 12, 2008 13:16:59 GMT -5
Utley was more valuable to the Phillies than Howard was.
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Post by Chris on Nov 12, 2008 13:23:55 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Lincecum shouldn't have gotten it. I pretty clearly stated that Lincecum's numbers came under much more difficult conditions than Webb's.
What I did say is that .... considering that 20 games still remains this sort of mystical wall to break through ... and that years and years down the line when all of the circumstantial facts are long since forgotten and all we see are the Win/Loss totals...
....someone is going to raise an eyebrow over an 18 game winner getting the nod over a 22 game winner. From a cursory viewpoint, without looking at the run support and other extenuating circumstances, 22 games is a big deal.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 12, 2008 13:45:29 GMT -5
Wins are all about run support. Webb was fortunate that he didn't have a bullpen blowing games for him combined with good run support. Linceum was the better pitcher. Anyone who does that comparison may only have that thought for a split second before he looks at the rest of the stats.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 12, 2008 13:53:52 GMT -5
someone is going to raise an eyebrow over an 18 game winner getting the nod over a 22 game winner.
No, they won't.
Maybe someone like YOU. Maybe someone who does not understand the game.
Only thing you need to realize in regards to Lincecums wins is that he ended up winning 18 of the under 80 games his team won. He did the best he Goddamned could with that sketchy club.
Im stunned you are going by wins here. If you want to even play with wins, look at a win to loss ratio. But dont go by "number of wins." Thats bizarre. Are you saying Mike Mussina was better than Lincecum this year cause he won 20?
Come on, Cho.
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Post by Chris on Nov 12, 2008 14:04:12 GMT -5
Is reading comprehension a lost art?
So, will the THIRD time I'm saying that I agree with Lincecum winning the award finally stick?
I should just copy and paste my last post, but I'll try to rephrase it once again....
Years from now, when no one is looking at the Giant's record, no one is looking at the D-Backs record, no one is looking at how much run support Webb got, no one is looking at strikeout:walks ratios, and all sorts of the other extra information that is available to support the Lincecum pick........YEARS from now when someone (not me...thanks to this thread I'll never forget...but SOMEONE) sees a summarized snippet reading, "In 2008, 18 game winner Tim Lincecum beat out 22 game winner Brandon Webb for the National League Cy Young Award" .... the initial reaction will be to wonder what the hell happened that a guy who broke the vaunted 20 game barrier by a whopping 2 games lost out the Cy Young to a guy who only(?) won 18 games.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Nov 12, 2008 14:22:44 GMT -5
Cho, do you not understand the game? He won 18 on a worser team than Webb did. That is what is important here.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 12, 2008 14:26:48 GMT -5
Cho, stop speaking up for the people who will be taking the time years from now to look at lists of Cy Young winners. I would say the majority of them have enough understanding of the game to not think anything awry with this.
I KNOW you said you think Lincecum is the right choice. I just think you are out of your mind that you consider yourself one of the "select few" who would not be taken aback at the idea of an 18 game winner taking it over a 22 game winner.
You must argue with baseball dummies all day when you are not arguing with our own baseball dummy in Balls. For some reason you think every fan aside from you is dense. I would say 9 of 10 real fans could give two craps who won 18 and who won 22 in the Cy Young battle for 2008.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 12, 2008 14:41:14 GMT -5
And years from now, no one will look only at wins only. It may be the first stat they read, but that's only because traditionally, people read left to right.
You don't see stats listed this way--20 wins.
You see them more like this 20-6, 2.90, 200K
No one will question this award. Not ever.
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Post by 9 on Nov 12, 2008 14:52:47 GMT -5
Webb's agent might, but that's just business, not personal.
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Post by Chris on Nov 12, 2008 15:06:19 GMT -5
the same people who had trouble with Jeter losing to Morneau in 2006, will have an issue with this.
Yes, people are dummies.
"Cho, do you not understand the game? He won 18 on a worser team than Webb did. That is what is important here." -- I understand it perfectly, which is why, again, I said I am behind the Lincecum choice.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 12, 2008 15:22:26 GMT -5
Cho, you're wrong.
And you are doing the same thing you rip Balls for, continuing an argument you obviously lost, and putting stubborness in the way of sanity.
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 12, 2008 15:27:27 GMT -5
No one will have any issue with this. Linceum has him beat at every category except wins. No one looks solely at wins.
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Post by Jason Giambi on Nov 12, 2008 15:51:23 GMT -5
the same people who had trouble with Jeter losing to Morneau in 2006, will have an issue with this. Yes, people are dummies. "Cho, do you not understand the game? He won 18 on a worser team than Webb did. That is what is important here." -- I understand it perfectly, which is why, again, I said I am behind the Lincecum choice. it was a worser team, stop trying to use wins as the only reason your guy lost. it's over. Congratulate the man.
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Post by Chris on Nov 12, 2008 16:16:37 GMT -5
Holy Crap!
For the 39048239048 time, I support Lincecum as the choice for the 2008 NL Cy Young Award Winner.
Congrats Lincecum...MY GUY won!
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Post by Jason Giambi on Nov 12, 2008 16:30:02 GMT -5
that's better. I'm glad to see that you approve of the guy getting the most votes as the winner.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 12, 2008 16:30:19 GMT -5
Cho, we never questioned your take on that part of it....we just think you are talking out of your ass on the wins total part of it.
Anyway, managers of the year announced....Piniella and Maddon. From MLB.COM
Joe Maddon and the man he succeeded as Tampa Bay manager, Lou Piniella, were named Managers of the Year in the American League and National League, respectively, by the Baseball Writers' Association of America, announced Wednesday afternoon. Both were recognized for leading their teams to 2008 glory, with Maddon's Rays reaching a destination that remained out of the reach of Piniella's Cubs for a 63rd straight year -- the World Series.
Maddon's selection had been long anticipated, ever since he put the Tampa Bay Rays on track for their first playoff appearance following a 10-year existence of losing.
The honor is the first for the 54-year-old Maddon, who assumed his first managerial job when he was hired by Tampa Bay in November 2005, taking over after Piniella had guided his hometown team to 200 wins in three seasons.
And, typical of the blithe spirit that is often associated with the manager, Wednesday's announcement caught Maddon on a European honeymoon with his bride of a few days, Jaye.
Piniella, a two-time winner of AL honors in 1995 and 2001 with the Seattle Mariners, prevailed in a more competitive NL race after guiding the Cubs to the Central Division title with a 97-64 record.
The 97 wins were the Cubs' most since 98 in 1945 -- the season of their last World Series appearance. Piniella also maneuvered the Cubs into consecutive postseason appearances for the first time since 1907-08 -- the seasons of the franchise's last two World Series championships.
Piniella is the first Cubs manager to earn the award since Don Zimmer, now a Rays senior adviser, in 1989.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 19, 2008 12:47:34 GMT -5
Funny thing, with Pedroia winning the MVP award and all. With his .326, 17 homers, and 83 RBIs. Just a year ago, on this board, I was KILLED for saying flat-out Pedroia was better than Cano. It was a fact then, and its well proven now.
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Post by 9 on Nov 19, 2008 12:55:13 GMT -5
I would have argued with you at the end of the 2007 season, but at the end of the 2008 season, you are correct, sir!
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MSBNYY
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Post by MSBNYY on Nov 19, 2008 12:58:09 GMT -5
A year ago, he was not better than Cano. Cano then had a shitty year, while Pedroia had a great one. Hard to argue for Cano now.
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Post by 9 on Nov 19, 2008 14:26:20 GMT -5
Hard to argue for Cano over Enrique Wilson right now.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Mar 12, 2009 8:20:32 GMT -5
LOL @ "hard where."
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Post by Chris on Mar 12, 2009 10:35:26 GMT -5
Seeing this, bumps the Cano conversation again.
Folks, I think it's safe to say that we can toss the Rod Carew comparisons.
Cano is plateaued. He is what he is....a slothful, lazy fielder more concerned with making plays look easy than actually making the plays, a great raw hitting talent with no discipline at the plate.
Throw all those talks of future batting titles in the shitter.
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Jun 22, 2009 19:55:54 GMT -5
LOL @ "hard where"
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$heriff Tom
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Post by $heriff Tom on Nov 17, 2009 9:03:26 GMT -5
So its pretty much a given Greinke will win the Cy today. Cant wait to hear the Yankee fans bitching over that one (although it may be nothing compared to the bitching we'll hear once Mauer cops the MVP over Tex and company)
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